Message-Id: <199608062301.TAA28769@locke.ccil.org>
Date:         Wed, 7 Aug 1996 00:24:31 +0200
Reply-To: Goran Topic <topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: Goran Topic <topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR>
Subject:      Re: wind at your back (eng)
To: John Cowan <cowan@LOCKE.CCIL.ORG>
Status: U
Content-Length: 1922

> Simile & metaphor are both English words. I agree that they do not apply to
> lojban utterances in a straighforward fashion. But peha ought to change to
> context to a presumably shared one external to lojban, no? Doubtless, tanru
> can be used to express the same simile/metaphor distinction in lojban.

.i la'edi'e lojbo cusku nandu mi .i I think that they apply, too. Simile
and metaphor are things that are not pertinent to language, but speech.
lojban can express metaphors as well as any language, but in actual
speech it is very bad form to do so, IMHO. It is just like English being
perfectly able to say "shit" and "fuck", but it is not entirely
acceptable in every circumstance. If I ever reach a stage where I am a
fluent lojban speaker, I think I would use metaphors only in very
informal conversations with people I am well acquainted with. YMMV. I
have nothing against similes in lojban, and think that it is the closest
one can get in translating metaphors into good written lojban.

Besides, would you, metaphor lovers, like it if I started saying e.g.
that something is not {mlatu kafke}? Or, stating that something {klama
fi lo tsani fe lo cutne}? That something is a {karni datka}? Do you know
what I'm talking about? I know, I know, I am familiar with your
language/culture while you have no knowledge of mine, but that is beside
the point. What I am saying is that if you put English-specific things
into lojban speech, you might as well stick to English. Sapir-Whorf
experiment requires cultural neutrality to work. lojban as an
international language holds maybe little, maybe no advantage whatsoever
over Esperanto if you waive its independence of cultural background. And
if we hope to make machines understand us, there must be no cultural
references in our speech, whichever language we used, to stand any chance
of success.

Without cultural neutrality there is no lojban.

co'o mi'e. goran.