From LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Mar 6 22:58:53 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI Received: (qmail 19801 invoked from network); 21 Dec 1996 20:16:18 -0000 Received: from segate.sunet.se (192.36.125.6) by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with SMTP; 21 Dec 1996 20:16:18 -0000 Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <2.A9B1C4E7@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Sat, 21 Dec 1996 21:16:15 +0100 Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 17:17:23 -0300 Reply-To: "Jorge J. Llambias" Sender: Lojban list From: "Jorge J. Llambias" Subject: Re: PLI: zoigy. unless .gy. xelfanva lu secau X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 2205 Lines: 67 Message-ID: la dn di'e cusku >ni'o la xorxes. pu fanva lu secau li'u fuzoigy. unless .gy. i ienai i mi pu fanva pa valsi na.e lo jufra >The conjunction "unless" implies causality something which does not follow >from 'secau'. Perhaps not explicitly, but I think it was clear in the context. The sentence I was translating was something like: Your seeking is useless unless you know the mystery. which I think is close enough in meaning to: Your seeking without knowing the mystery is useless. Your translation was: lenu sisku na sidju ki'u lenu na'e djuno filo nalterju'o which means something like: "It is not the case that: seeking is helpful because the mystery is unknown." I think you meant {na} not to have scope over {ki'u}, but it does. I guess you could say something like: le nu sisku cu na'e sidju ki'u le nu na'e djuno fi lo nalterju'o which I agree also conserves the original meaning more or less. But I still find mine with {secau} quite acceptable. Notice that you have to talk about _not_ knowing the mystery, while with {secau} I was able to keep it as knowing it. That is just a matter of preference, in any case. > I will go to the bank unless you give me some money. >means, > I will go to the bank for-the-reason you do not give me some money. > > .i mi klama lo banxo ki'ulenu do na dunda lo jdini mi >whereas, > .i mi klama lo banxo secaulenu do dunda lo jdini mi > >I take to mean, "I will go to the bank, and you didn't give me money". >Similar to, > .i mi klama lo banxo faulen do na dunda lo jdini mi > But here things are slightly different. I was able to put the {secau} clause inside one of the arguments. In this other example you are leaving it at the sentence level. In any case, I would probably say: i mi klama le banxa va'o le nu do na dunda lo jdini mi I will go to the bank if you don't give me money I propose the use of {va'onai} as a general translation for "unless": i mi klama le banxa va'onai le nu do dunda lo jdini mi va'o: under conditions... va'onai: under any condition except... le nu sisku cu nalsidju va'onai lenu djuno fi lo nalterju'o i pe'ipei? co'o mi'e xorxes