Message-Id: <199709301849.NAA13916@locke.ccil.org>
Reply-To: And Rosta <a.rosta@UCLAN.AC.UK>
Date: Tue Sep 30 13:49:23 1997
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: And Rosta <a.rosta@UCLAN.AC.UK>
Organization: University of Central Lancashire
Subject:      Re: .ei as I see it
X-To:         LOJBAN@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
To: John Cowan <cowan@LOCKE.CCIL.ORG>
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Lojbab to Jorge:
> Unless contradicted in the Book, I interpret your examples as
>
> >        ei mi klama
> >        I must come.
>
> I am coming (I feel obliged to).
>
> >        ei mi na klama
> >        I must not come.
>
> I'm not coming (I feel obliged not to).

I prefer your glosses, but here you and Xorxes
basically agree.

> >        einai mi klama
> >        I don't have to come.
> >        (I may not come.)
>
> I am coming (I am free to do so)

I slightly agree and disagree with both of you.
My rendering would be:

      I am coming (but am free from an obligation to come).

> >        einai mi na klama
> >        I don't have to not come.
> >        (I may come.)
>
> I am not coming (I am free not to do so).

     I am not coming (but am free from an obligation to not come)

> I am imagining a wedding as a situation where various invited or
> uninvited people associated with the bride/groom might express any of
> these.
>
> >Unfortunately "einai" is glossed as "freedom" in the cmavo list, which
> >would reverse the meaning of last two.  "Freedom to do something" is not
> >the same as "non-obligation to do something", but rather it is
> >"non-obligation to NOT do something".  I don't think that the "nai" of
> >"einai" should have this double negative implication, so I propose to
> >fix the gloss in the cmavo list.
>
> "freedom" means "freedom from obligation" in the case of the cmavo list
> which has traditionally been limited to a keyword size appropriate to
> LogFlash.  There are numerous places like this one where the keyword is
> inadequate or perhaps misleading in some contexts (especially if
> negation is involved).

In this case I think you will prefer my renderings, which brings
us into agreement with Jorge.

--And