From LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Mar 6 22:53:50 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI Received: (qmail 21465 invoked from network); 22 Sep 1997 15:24:03 -0000 Received: from segate.sunet.se (192.36.125.6) by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with SMTP; 22 Sep 1997 15:24:02 -0000 Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.10B11499@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:11:44 +0100 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:59:40 -0400 Reply-To: John Cowan Sender: Lojban list From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral Subject: Re: na`e X-To: Lojban List To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 1822 Lines: 53 Message-ID: bob@MEGALITH.RATTLESNAKE.COM wrote: > 3. The cat sits otherwise than on the chair. > lo mlatu ca'o na'e vreta lo stizu No, that would be: 4) lo mlatu ca'o vreta na'ebo lo stizu (i.e. the cat is in a sitting-relationship with something other than a chair). I'm neglecting the lo/le issue here. A better English translation of your Lojban would be "The cat other-than-sits on the chair." > The latter utterance contains *two* propositions: > > a. That it is false that the cat sits on the chair; and, The dispute is about whether (a) is in fact always true given (3). > b. that some other proposition is true. > > to ra'unai lo mlatu ca'a vreta lo cuktykajna toi > (Incidentally, the cat actually reposes on a > book-type-of-counter/shelf.) No, won't do. If "vreta" is scalar-negated as in (3), then it is "vreta" that must be replaced to make the statement true. This replacement would be suitable for a true statement underlying (4). > Chapter 10: > Unlike contradictory negation, scalar negation asserts a truth: > that the bridi is true with some tense other than that specified. This quotation belongs to scalar negation *of tense*; it isn't relevant to selbri scalar negation. > Chapter 15: > But what exactly does na'e negate? Does the negation include only > the gismu klama, which is the entire selbri in this case, or does > it include the le zarci as well? In Lojban, the answer is > unambiguously ``only the gismu''. The cmavo na'e always applies > only to what follows it. This quotation is correct and applicable, but contradicts your example: the "na'e" in (3) applies only to the relation "sits-on". -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban