From LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Mar 6 22:54:16 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI Received: (qmail 6923 invoked from network); 20 Sep 1997 16:29:07 -0000 Received: from segate.sunet.se (192.36.125.6) by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with SMTP; 20 Sep 1997 16:29:07 -0000 Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <8.84E2F2AD@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 18:28:56 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 01:51:00 -0300 Reply-To: JORGE JOAQUIN LLAMBIAS Sender: Lojban list From: JORGE JOAQUIN LLAMBIAS Subject: Re: na`e X-To: lojban To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 1824 Lines: 55 Message-ID: cu'u la lojbab >Alternatively, I do not see how selbri negation, at least of the to'e and >na'e varieties, could NOt entail contradictory negation. to'e does not entail negation! I already gave an example: la djan cu clarai lei prenu pe le kumfa John is the tallest of the people in the room. la djan cu to'e clarai lei prenu pe le kumfa John is the opposite-of-tallest of the people in the room. Both can be true at the same time (if John is the only person in the room), so the second one does NOT entail: la djan na clarai lei prenu pe le kumfa John is not the tallest of the people in the room. Another example: la djan la meris cu prami gi'e to'e prami John loves and opposite-of-loves Mary. There is no contradiction there, it is possible to love and hate someone at the same time. {la djan to'e prami la meris} does NOT entail {la djan na prami la meris}. Opposites are not the same as negation, they are different concepts. > But I BELIEVE that, while selbri negation >generally covers a smaller scope than a bridi, it inherently contradicts >the un-negated bridi that it forms a part of. Thus it leads to contradictory >negation PLUS additional information. I don't think that's true in general. It works only when the sumti are singular references, but not in the general case. Another example. Suppose there are four cats in the room, but I can see only two of them. mi na'e viska re le vo mlatu I other-than-see two of the four cats. (Maybe I can hear them.) this does NOT entail that mi na viska re le vo mlatu It is not the case that I see two of the four cats. So I agree that {ro na'e broda naku broda}, but let us not generalize from that to say that the na'e-selbri negates the bridi! Jorge