From LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Mar 6 22:53:31 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI Received: (qmail 9402 invoked from network); 24 Sep 1997 14:45:50 -0000 Received: from segate.sunet.se (192.36.125.6) by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with SMTP; 24 Sep 1997 14:45:50 -0000 Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.C164308E@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:45:40 +0100 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:40:33 GMT+0 Reply-To: And Rosta Sender: Lojban list From: And Rosta Organization: University of Central Lancashire Subject: Re: RV: na'e entails na? X-To: LOJBAN@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 1353 Lines: 34 Message-ID: Don: > > (2) If na`e doesn't entail na: How to say something equivlant to > > na`e + na? > > This is dead easy: > > .i .abu by. cy. na broda .ije na'ego'i > > and go'i != broda because broda is false. I know that "na broda .ije ja`a go`i" is defined as a contradiction rather than a tautology, because "ja`a" substitutes for "na" rather than taking "na broda" within its scope. But is the same true of NA`E? (I think you're right, but want confirmation.) > > (1) If na`e entails na: How to say something equivlant to na`e > > but not entailing na? > > I see what you mean, it is extremely difficult to formulate something > eliminating the extra condition. However, how often would one want to say > such a thing (pragmatics as you say)? For example, everyone is either citizen of France or citizen of some other country. [NB INCLUSIVE OR] I want to describe the latter group as "na`e fraso zei selgugde" [I'm taking x1 of selgugde to be a citizen]. But since for example someone can be a citizen of both France and Britain, "na`e fraso zei selgugde" would not work if it entails "na fraso zei selgugde". "na fraso ..." gives me everyone who isn't French, whereas I want everyone who is a citizen of a country other than France. For that I would like to use "na`e fraso", but will not be able to if everyone bar me gets their way! --And