From LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Mar 6 22:53:31 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI Received: (qmail 20971 invoked from network); 22 Sep 1997 13:09:13 -0000 Received: from segate.sunet.se (192.36.125.6) by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with SMTP; 22 Sep 1997 13:09:13 -0000 Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <14.ECD456F0@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:09:02 +0100 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:57:18 -0400 Reply-To: bob@rattlesnake.com Sender: Lojban list From: bob@MEGALITH.RATTLESNAKE.COM Subject: Re: na`e To: lojban@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU In-Reply-To: <199709201654.NAA26375@roble.intermedia.com.ar> (jorge@intermedia.com.ar) Content-Length: 1867 Lines: 53 Message-ID: jorge@intermedia.com.a wrote: > lo mlatu ca'o vreta lo stizu > reclining/resting on what is truly a chair.> Yes, perhaps I would prefer "some cat sits on some chair" for the English for that. This is an old argument. Suffice to say that I think it is practical in everyday language to distinguish between that which I designate {le} and that which really is {lo}. > 2. It is false that the cat sits on the chair. > lo mlatu na ca'o vreta lo stizu Here it does make a difference. The Lojban actually says that it is false that some cat sits on some chair, so it only agrees with your translation if there is a single cat in your universe. Yes -- but that is what I am saying: there is one cat in my current universe of discourse. Again, I see this as a pragmatic convenience that enables me to distinguish that which really is a cat from the cat-like sculpture next to her. When you are speaking careful logic, which you can also do, you can expand your universe of discourse. > 3. The cat sits otherwise than on the chair. > lo mlatu ca'o na'e vreta lo stizu No, na'e negates "vreta", not "lo stizu", ... You are absolutely right! I even quoted a statement from _The Complete Lojban Language_ that should have put me straight. I would have translate that as: That which really is one or more cats other-than-sits with respect to that which really is one or more chairs. You would translate it as: Some cat other-than-sits with respect to some chair. As both you and Don Wiggins pointed out, I should have said .i lo mlatu ca'o stizu na'ebo lo stizu -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com 25 Rattlesnake Mountain Road bob@ai.mit.edu Stockbridge, MA 01262-0693 USA (413) 298-4725