Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:47:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199710240147.UAA28952@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: JORGE JOAQUIN LLAMBIAS Sender: Lojban list From: JORGE JOAQUIN LLAMBIAS Subject: Re: abstractor place structures To: lojban X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 2616 Lines: 73 Lojbab: >> >> lei va mlatu cu klani li paci le ka kancu >>>> Those cats are in quantity 13 as counted. >>>Why not just use kancu as the selbri? >>Because it has a place x1 for the counter which I didn't want. >Butsince you have used kansu in your version, the counter is still >required. kancu that is. ka kancu still has the counter place. Yes, but it's abstracted out, not as an argument of the main selbri. If you prefer: lei va mlatu cu klani li paci le kamselkancu >I can imagine ni mlatu be fi lo selci (be loi mlatu) woulfd be a klani >whose x2 is the count. mlatu be fi lo selci? You must have mistyped something. >But I would prefernot to stretch klani/ni to be used >for counts of objects. How do you interpret the "enumerated by x2" bit in the gi'uste definition of klani? >I am willing to have a count always to imply a counter. That's fine. I am not, and so I look for ways to say in Lojban what I want to say. >> But I don't want to talk about >>someone doing measurements. I want a word like mitre, >>grake, and all the other measure words that don't talk of >>a measurer. >Measurement is relative to a measurer in Lojban, it appears. Not true for all the gismu measure words. I expect to be able to form lujvo with place structures parallel to those. >mitre and >the like are units (gradu), If you mean {ro mitre cu gradu} then I disagree. >and I intended, back before people got hung up >on place structure conventions, that new measurement units would be lujvo >based on gradu. I don't understand your point. Are you saying that because that's what you intended back then we should avoid any rational analysis? How do you use {gradu} to say "the sugar is 3 in cups", in a way that parallels {le sakta cu grake li xanono} for "the sugar is 600 in grams"? This brings to my mind something that occured to me some time ago. What goes in the middle of this series: kilto x1 is a thousand [1x10**3] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3 xecto x1 is a hundred [1x10**2] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3 dekto x1 is ten [1x10**1] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3 ????? x1 is one [1x10**0] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3 decti x1 is a tenth [1x10**-1] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3 centi x1 is a hundredth [1x10**-2] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3 milti x1 is a thousandth [1x10**-3] of x2 in dimension/aspect x3 I thought that {gradu} might fit there nicely in the middle: gradu x1 is a unit of x2 measuring property x3 -- co'o mi'e xorxes