Date:  Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:11:19 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199710221811.NAA14444@locke.ccil.org>
Reply-To: And Rosta <a.rosta@UCLAN.AC.UK>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: And Rosta <a.rosta@UCLAN.AC.UK>
Organization: University of Central Lancashire
Subject:      Re: abstractors
X-To:         LOJBAN@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
To: John Cowan <cowan@LOCKE.CCIL.ORG>
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
Content-Length: 2078
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Jorge:
> >BTW, does li`i involve a ce`u too?
>
> This is what the refgram gives as the example for li'i:
>
>                         mi morji le li'i mi verba
>                         I remember the experience-of (my being-a-child)
>
> I suppose one could also say:
>
>                        mi morji le li'i ce'u verba
>                        I remember the experience of being a child.

There's a difference. Contrast:

  Only Prince Charles remembers marrying Diana. [true]
  Only Prince Charles remembers his/P.C.'s marrying Diana. [false]

but maybe these don't correspond to your li`i examples.

>  But do those say anything different from: {mi morji le du'u mi
> verba},

I would have thought that remembering an experience is not
the same as remembering a fact. Remembering an experience
would be like remembering a person.
Then there's rexperiencing an earlier experience, which is
something different again.

> and {mi morji le ka ce'u verba} respectively?

I would definitely not interpret that as having {mi} bind
{ce`u}.

> What exactly does li'i add, if anything? Is it something like:
> {le li'i broda kei be ko'a} = {le du'u broda e le du'u ko'a cinmo makau dy}
> Koha's experience of broda = The fact that broda & how koha feels about it.
>
> I don't know.

It alwaus helps to remember that li`i was invented (before my
time) for a legless amputee who experienced having toes. This
in fact helps me to answer my own question: I would see li`i
as a counterpart of nu, that differs from nu in that nu is
the real world while li`i is the world of an individual's (x2
of li`i) experience. Just as nu has no ce`u, then,, nor would
li'i.

That leaves the matter of how to lojban:

  Only Prince Charles remembers marrying Diana. [true]
  Only Prince Charles remembers his/P.C.'s marrying Diana. [false]

I did once write a message illustrating how it could be done
in Lojban, but I think I never got round to sending it.

Anyway, a nice challenge for you, the most challengeworthy
of Lojbanists.

--And.