Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:12:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711072112.QAA10136@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: Ironic Use of Attitudinals X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan Status: OR X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 2185 X-From-Space-Date: Fri Nov 7 16:12:53 1997 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU >Also sprach refgram -- > > It is important to realize that ``.uu'', and indeed all >attitudinals, > are meant to be used sincerely, not ironically. In English, the > exclamation ``Pity!'' is just as likely to be ironically intended, >but > this usage does not extend to Lojban. Lying with attitudinals is > (normally) as inappropriate to Lojban discourse as any other kind of > lying: perhaps worse, because misunderstood emotions can cause even > greater problems than misunderstood statements. > >I assume the refgram is merely saying that none of the attitudinals are >ironic by default, rather than that attitudinals should never be used >ironically. Is this right? Since the attitudinals are intended to be expressions of internal states rather than statements about those internal states, a fluent speaker should not use attitudinals ironically. The fluent spe aker will show his feelings openly (or express the hiding of feelings perhaps). Ironic usages are by implication statements about feelings rather than ex pressions of them. It takes conscious thought to express an emotion falsely or ironically. So I hope no one starts using the attitduinals ironically ever. Kinda would spo il their purpose. As a bit of background, we've had the specific debate that an attitudinal expression is NOT the same as a metalomguistic comment claiming the speaker feels the emotion, i.e. .ui is not the same as sei mi gleki although both would be used in pretty much the same ways. But "sei mi gleki" is a predication and hence can be evaluated as true or false. Attitudinals are supposed to be beyond truth or falsity (though they may affect the truth-functionality of a bridi they are attached to. lojbab ---- lojbab lojbab@access.digex.net Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/" Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.