Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:07:50 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711111707.MAA26088@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: Rick Nylander Sender: Lojban list From: Rick Nylander Subject: Re: Ironic Use of Attitudinals X-To: Lojban list To: John Cowan Status: O X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 2158 X-From-Space-Date: Tue Nov 11 12:08:08 1997 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU >>Attitudinals constitute the meta-linguistic features that are used in >>conversation such as smiles. > >No, they are not _the_ meta-linguistic features, they are just _some_ >meta-linguistic features. Their existence does not stop you using _other_ >meta-linguistic features not specified by lojban (such as smiling) if you >feel they won't be misunderstood. To quote from the refgram, chapter 13, section 1: "In Lojban, everything that can be spoken can also be written." This says that attitudinals are intended to be substitutes for what you would normally say using changes in voice pitch, smiles, etc. In section 16 of chapter 13: "The exact ramifications of the indicator system in actual usage are unknown. There has never been anything like it in natural language before." This is as good a statement as you are going to get that attitudinals are not intended to be the equivalent of anything in english or any other language. Therefore any comparisons to english "ha ha" are inappropriate. >In fact, I don't believe the refgram would have the authority to forbid >such use, any more than it would have the authority to declare that one >should never tell jokes in lojban, or that one should never offend people >in lojban. Heresy! Heresy! Better be careful, or the language police might getcha' ;-) Obviously nothing can forbid you using (or abusing) any language in any way that you choose. You can speak all english backward if it makes you happy. But no one will understand what you're saying if you do. I can certainly see attitudinals as contributing to a joke. Example: A man talks about how his brand new Cadillac rolled off a cliff yesterday and was crushed to a smoldering heap of metal, yet every attitudinal he uses indicates a combination of great joy and relief. Upon being asked about this, the man explains that his mother-in-law was driving it. (ta-dum) I have read that someone on this list (I think it's lojbab) actually speaks lojban in a monotone so as to avoid injecting cultural dependent aspects (e.g. attitudinals). I assume this is true. (lojbab - 'fess-up. Do you confirm or deny?) Rik.