Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 04:07:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711070907.EAA17521@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: Ashley Yakeley Sender: Lojban list From: Ashley Yakeley Subject: Re: 'your will' as sumti X-To: Lojban List To: John Cowan X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 2278 X-From-Space-Date: Fri Nov 7 04:07:12 1997 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU At 1997-11-06 08:27, Rick Nylander wrote: >> If "desire" is the right translation for "will" (I think the >> original poster's "motivated act" is better), then the sentence >> would be {ko gasnu le se djica be do}. > >Hmm, I think you're right about that part. {ko gasnu le do djica} would >probably translate to "do your desiring" or "go ahead and desire." So >the better phrase would be {ko gasnu le se djica be do}. I was about to say you can only do an action, not an event, but in = fact x2 of gasnu accepts events. So this would mean 'cause those = events you desire to happen'. I'm not sure this is the same thing, = however... >I disagree about {mukti}, however, unless you think that slaves working >in a field are doing their own wills, simply because they are motivated >by a whip. There's a problem here, because there's no clear distinction between = the two kinds of motivation: the slaves in your example are arguably = doing want they want to do given the situation that they're in. In = this sense, of course, everyone does what they want to all the time. The division in kinds of motivation into 'our own' and 'imposed' is = our own invention. Consider: 1. I want a cookie. 2. We had to eat the other passengers because we were starving. Surely the same motivation? But the latter suggests imposition. BUT, inasmuch as we have this division, I concede that we might want = words for them and {mukti} only covers both cases rather than just = the first. > Hmm, unless you specify that YOU are the one motivating >yourself. This means that you must fill in the x1 place with {do}: {se >mukti do do} (I'm weak on constructing sumti, so I know that needs work >to be useable). That won't help, because it doesn't really make much sense. = Considering almost any motivation, what goes in the x1 place is not = the x3 agent but some desire or something that represents that = desire. It would only be appropriate if the x3 agent is making some = kind of deliberate effort or something. So what's the best translation of 'fais ce que voudras'? Gargantua is = admonishing his Th=E9l=E8mites to live free from 'vile constraint and = subjection', so perhaps {mukti} isn't quite appropriate. -- Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA http://www.halcyon.com/ashleyb/