Date:  Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:36:10 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199711081936.OAA06399@locke.ccil.org>
Reply-To: JORGE JOAQUIN LLAMBIAS <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: JORGE JOAQUIN LLAMBIAS <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>
Subject:      Re: mukti / djica
X-To:         lojban <lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
To: John Cowan <cowan@LOCKE.CCIL.ORG>
Status: OR
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
Content-Length: 2168
X-From-Space-Date: Sat Nov  8 14:36:12 1997
X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU

Lojbab:
 >But if I were to say that  I want someone to give me a million
>dollars so I can spread Lojban books around the world, I cannot see that
>my goal is necessarily going to be a cause/motive of such an event
occuring.
>If someone WERE to give me a million dollars it would likely be for a
>different motive on the part of a different person, and my motives would
>not have much relevance.

So you agree with me that:

>>The one difference that I seem to find at first sight is that {le djica}
>>may or may not take part in {le se djica} event while {le te mukti}
>>must take part in {le se mukti}.

Then you could say:

  mi djica le nu da dunda lo megru'u mi kei le nu fatri loi jbocku lei
mu'epre
  "I want that someone give me a million dollar in order to spread Lojban
  books around the world."

You can also say:

    le nu fatri loi jbocku lei mu'epre cu mukti le nu da dunda lo megru'u mi
kei mi
    "Spreading Lojban books around the world is what motivates that
    someone gives me a million dollars by my volition."

In other words: "Spreading Lojban books around the world is what motivates
my receiving  a million dollars from someone." The x3 of mukti must be the
agent of the x2 event.


cu'u la veion
>    le nu citka cu te djica le nu te vecnu le nanba kei mi
>    le nu mi xagji cu mukti le nu te vecnu le nanba kei mi
>
>  x3 of djica is a goal, x1 of mukti is a starting point

So you respond affirmatively to my questions:

>>Is there a significant difference between purpose
>>and motive? Is it a matter of tense, the motive having to occur
>>before and the purpose after?

But do you accept these:

    i le nu ba'o xagji cu te djica le nu te vecnu le nanba kei mi
    i le nu pu'o citka cu mukti le nu te vecnu le nanba kei mi

>>If so, why do we need two words,
>>can't we just use the tenses to show the sequence?

In summary, we have identified two differences between djica and
mukti:

1- {le te mukti} must be the agent of {le se mukti}, whereas there
need not be any such relation between {le djica} and {le se djica}.

2- {le mukti} happens before {le se mukti}, but {le te djica} happens
after {le se djica}.

 co'o mi'e xorxes