Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:12:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711100512.AAA16320@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: mukti / djica X-To: jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR X-cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan Status: OR X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 2180 X-From-Space-Date: Mon Nov 10 00:12:23 1997 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU >In summary, we have identified two differences between djica and >mukti: > >1- {le te mukti} must be the agent of {le se mukti}, whereas there >need not be any such relation between {le djica} and {le se djica}. Usually. I can imagine cases where le te mukti is not an agent of le se mukti, but they might be idiosyncratic or even embedded sumti raising. Someone might have a motive x1 for an event x2 which he is not the active agent in, but rather a driving force behind. e.g. perhaps "staying in power" was a motvie for "exiling people to Siberia" by the volition of Stalin, even though Stalin might never personally have performed the act of focring the peopl onto the train. But he was at least an instigating agent. >2- {le mukti} happens before {le se mukti}, but {le te djica} happens >after {le se djica}. I agree with the first, not sure of the second. We can decide that we want something not to have happened that has already happened. and I'm not sure how the time sequencing goes then. In general, though I agree that goals come after the events leading towards those goals, and motives and desires come before the events motivated by the motive and/or the desire. But I think that putting too much emphasis on time sequencing here is risky. One major point about having a rich causality system in Loglan/Lojban was to separate causality from conditionals and tensed sentences. In the real world, causality is of course generally time-dependent, but I will cite Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow as a novel in which causality (and perhaps motivation as well) is all screwed up with respect to time sequencing. (not that I've ever made it through the book _ i've just been told that this is what it's about). lojbab ---- lojbab lojbab@access.digex.net Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/" Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.