Message-ID: <34969F24.5AA8@locke.ccil.org> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:32:52 -0500 From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lojban List Subject: Re: whether (was Re: ni, jei, perfectionism) References: <199712161239.HAA05990@locke.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 1752 X-From-Space-Date: Tue Dec 16 10:32:52 1997 X-From-Space-Address: - Logical Language Group wrote: > You mean ce'u, I assume. But NO I do not. To put ce'u in there > (unless I put it in all places) is to focus on a particular place as > significant to my apporval. The statement is NOT that I approve of > the property of beautiful things or the property of people appreciating > beautiful things or the property of aspects leading to appreciation of > beauty or the property of aesthetic standards being used for such recognition > of beauty. The respective "le ka ... ce'u" forms actually mean: le ka fa ce'u melbi: the property of being beautiful le ka fe ce'u melbi: the property of appreciating beauty le ka fi ce'u melbi: the property of being a beautiful aspect le ka fo ce'u melbi: the property of being an aesthetic standard > The statement is appreciation of Beauty, in all of its > ramifications - the relationship between people and beautiful things and > apsects and aesthetic standards. Yes, then your "le ka melbi" does mean "le ka ce'u melbi ce'u ce'u ce'u". > >> mi zanru le du'u melbi > >> > >> I approve of the fact that (something is) beautiful. > > > >No. "I approve of the proposition that something is beautiful". > > > >"the fact that" is better rendered by "le nu". > > I disagree, partly because I do not see any difference between the former > and the latter. Nor I. > But since ledu'u got its definition in part from djuno, How's that? > then le du'u which is something that can be known, must therefore be a > "fact". We only get factivity if the selbri is factive, as "djuno" is. You can "jinvi le du'u le mlatu cu crino cirla" without making the moon's green-cheese-itude a fact. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban