Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:44:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712201844.NAA24944@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" Sender: Lojban list From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" Subject: Re: multiple ce`u (was: Re: whether (was Re: ni, jei, X-To: lojban To: John Cowan Status: OR X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 1710 X-From-Space-Date: Sat Dec 20 13:44:01 1997 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU Lojbab: >I disapprove of movies which have these properties (restrictive) >I approve of the movie, which incidentally has these properties (non- > restrictive). >These seem conrtradictory, since any movie which fits the former sentence >also fits the latter sentence, if read solely as restrictive/non-restrictive. Yes, they certainly do. >Thus one has to presume that there is something about the relationship >between the moive and its identifying factor in the former sentence that >changes the meaning so that it is not merely the movie that I disapprove of. Or one might presume that one is not saying what one really means. >One possibility would be that I disapprove of the fact that the movie is >characterized by these properties. Right. Let's say {ko'a}="the movie", {ko'e}= "the property of having obscene scenes". Then you're saying: mi tolzanru le nu ko'a ckaji ko'e I disapprove of the movie having obscene scenes. >But why do I so disapprove? Because I >disapprove of the properties, and not the movie. How do you jump to that conclusion? You're saying that since {mi tolzanru le nu ko'a ckaji ko'e} is the case, then it must also be the case that {mi tolzanru ko'e} because {mi tolzanru ko'a} is not the case. I don't understand your reasoning. >Yet I do not disapprove of t >the properties in an absolute sense independent of the movie. Exactly. It wouldn't make much sense to disapprove of them. > That which >makes a movie vulgar/obscene is perfectly appropriate in some bedrooms. >So I must disapprove of the property of obscene-movies as a self-standing >concept. I don't understand what you mean by that. co'o mi'e xorxes