Date:  Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:29:43 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199712311929.OAA08783@locke.ccil.org>
Reply-To: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>
Subject:      Re: Knowledge & Belief
X-To:         lojban <lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
To: John Cowan <cowan@LOCKE.CCIL.ORG>
Status: OR
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
Content-Length: 831
X-From-Space-Date: Wed Dec 31 14:29:44 1997
X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU

la stivn cusku di'e

><la stivn djuno le du'u la xorxes djuno le du'u la lojbab klama le zarci
>kei fo da>
>
>"Steven knows that Jorge knows that Lojbab goes to the store."
>
>The above statement is always false, which considerably limits its utility.
>I am asserting that it is not possible to directly know that some else
>knows something.

?!

We really do use "know" differently then.

><la stivn djuno le du'u la xorxes xusra le du'u la lojbab klama le zarci
>kei fo da>
>
>"Steven knows that Jorge asserts that Lojbab goes to the store."
>
>This statement might be true, if Jorge has made such an assertion.

But you are the only person that can know that it is true? So {djuno}
can only be used truthfully in the first person? That's not how it has
been used, and that's not how "know" is used in English.

co'o mi'e xorxes