Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:10:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712121610.LAA06798@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: on du'u (delayed rtesponse) X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Content-Length: 2167 X-From-Space-Date: Fri Dec 12 11:10:26 1997 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU On the question of the semantic difference between du'u and nu. Other than the existence of x2 on du'u, I think there is a difference in how tenses relate to the semantics. Specifically, I do not think that one can meaningfully attach many tense constructs to a du'u predicate. What would it mean to say pu du'u broda especially when you remember the sumti structure: da pu du'u broda kei de I am pretty sure that this does not mean da du'u pu broda kei de The latter is discussing the tense aspects of the relationship itself, whereas the former two would be attaching a tense to the abstracting of or talking about the relationship (and its association to a string of text). If there formerly existed a possible relationship expressed by a certain string then it seems likely that there still is now. Indeed every possible Lojban predication is a ca du'u. We can have a du'u broda that is eternally false/unrealized/impossible in a/all possible worlds and still talk about it merely by being able to express it. The external tense seems to apply to the consideration of the predication and not to the event/occurence thatthe predication stands for. On the other hand, you can meaningfully attach tenses, contours etc to nu abstractions pu nu broda pu'o nu broda which continue to work when preceded by the explicit x1 da pu nu broda da pu'o nu broda and these have a definite semantic relationship, though I am not sure it is one of identity, to da nu pu broda da nu pu'o broda We would not use "ca" as a tense on nu unless the event is actually taking place now. Does this help either to define nu or to separate nu from du'u? ---- lojbab lojbab@access.digex.net Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/" Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.