Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:11:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712071811.NAA04848@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: Chris Bogart Sender: Lojban list From: Chris Bogart Subject: Re: kennings X-To: lojban To: John Cowan Status: OR X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 1952 X-From-Space-Date: Sun Dec 7 13:11:46 1997 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU Of the examples so far given here of the binary metaphors used in = kennings, some of them appear to me to work as straight lojban tanru = without figurative markers: battle =3D din of spears/ grexa'i savru (not exactly the same thing, = but in many contexts they could be used interchangeably, since a real norse battle probably was accompanied by actual noise of actual spears; i.e. {ca lenu grexa'i savru} =3D "during the battle") sea =3D whale's road / xasmabru dargu (whales use the sea to get from = x2 to x3 via route x4) sword =3D flame of battle / jamna fagri (I guess this one is really = metaphor) ship =3D steed of the waves / boxna ma'erda'u (This one too -- a steed = has to be an animal, if not a horse) So obviously, to do literal translation of kennings generally, one would = definitely need metaphor markers, or at least {le}. But it would still = be interesting to stretch the limits of unmarked tanru in lojban, using = apparently metaphorical word choices that still happen to be logically = true. For example a more lojbanic jbokenning of ship might be {boxna = katna} (wave cutter), and for sword, maybe {jamna minra} (war mirror). =20 Although while taken out of context these "veridicial metaphors" could = refer to other things, they refer to an interesting and predictable set = of other things -- a sword is a reflective thing associated with war, = but so is a pool of blood, the backside of a medal, the eyes of a = witness, even an armored vehicle with bullets bouncing off it. With the = metaphor markers turned on, a phrase really could mean anything; it's = not limited in such a concrete way. I think non-metaphorical, even = veridicial, tanru could lend themselves to a type of poetic expression = that is tied to reality in a significant way without being coldly = logical. co'o mi'e kris