Message-ID: <349EBE63.EB6@locke.ccil.org> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:24:19 -0500 From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lojban List Subject: Re: djuno and ce'u References: <199712221712.MAA22939@locke.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 1709 X-From-Space-Date: Mon Dec 22 14:24:19 1997 X-From-Space-Address: - la lojbab. cusku di'e > > There is nothing about the nature of Lojban that requires x2 of djuno to > > be a true proposition. > > There seems to be something about your > > interpretation of djuno (or maybe even the English "know") that presumes > > that something known is "true". la .and. cusku di'e > That's right. That's what "know" means. And both usage and the > baselined gismyste show that "djuno" means "know". And is basically correct, except that in Lojban, truth (and as a result knowledge as well) is relative to a so-called "epistemology", which in this case would better be called a "metaphysics". This allows sentences like "Ptolemy knew that the orbits of the heavenly bodies are circular, by the metaphysics of Aristotle." > I don't see how you are trying to make your point. By using > scarequotes you are implicitly attributing the belief in the > truth of the knowee to the knower rather than yourself. > > If you tell me that you find > > He knows that Christ was born on Christmas Day and she knows that > Christ was born on Christmas day. > > acceptable, then I will not believe you. Nor I. > > I am not sure what you mean. We have "krici" for believe, which is > > identical in the first 3 places to djuno, but requires no > > epistemological place, because no epistemologically based evidence is > > required for belief. > > It may be that no epistemologically based evidence is required for > {krici}. But it is required for belief. In Lojban, "believe" is split between "krici", which requires no evidence, and "jinvi", which does. "krici" is closer to "have faith that". -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban