Date:  Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:51:09 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <199712152251.RAA13778@locke.ccil.org>
Reply-To: JORGE JOAQUIN LLAMBIAS <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: JORGE JOAQUIN LLAMBIAS <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>
Subject:      Re: whether (was Re: ni, jei, perfectionism)
X-To:         lojban <lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
To: John Cowan <cowan@LOCKE.CCIL.ORG>
Status: OR
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011
Content-Length: 1949
X-From-Space-Date: Mon Dec 15 17:51:10 1997
X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU

And:
>>             la rik zmadu la alis le ka ce'u mitre makau
>>             Rick exceeds Alice in how much they measure.
 >
>BTW, this type of Q-kau that we get with zmadu and frica (and
>certain other selbri) is semantically very different from
>the sort we get with epistemic selbri. The essence of Q-kau here
>is where we have two variables, where the value of each depends
>on the value of the other.

I think they are very much related. Let's consider {djuno} =
"x1 knows that x2 is true about x3". Now, we don't normally
fill in both x2 and x3 of {djuno} because it sounds silly:

        mi djuno le du'u la djan klama le zarci kei la djan
        "I know that John goes to the market about John."

        mi djuno le du'u la djan klama le zarci kei le zarci
        "I know that John goes to the market about the market."

Besides, I wouldn't know what is the difference between
those two.

But since {du'u} is just a special case of {ka}, we can take
advantage of that and make sense of x3 as the property
holder:

        mi djuno le ka ce'u klama le zarci kei la djan
        "I know that going to the market applies to John."

        mi djuno le ka la djan klama ce'u kei le zarci
        "I know about the market that it is being gone to by John."

Now let's move on to indirect questions:

        mi djuno le ka ce'u klama makau kei la djan
        "I know where is he going about John."

How do I say "I know where John and Alice are going"?

        mi djuno le ka ce'u klama makau kei la djan e la alis
        I know where they are going about each of John and Alice.

And finally:

        la djan frica la alis le ka ce'u klama makau
        "John differs from Alice in where they are going."

Why are these Q-kau different?

co'o mi'e xorxes




>
>Currently I think that it is glico influence that makes us use
>Q-kau here. That said, it is the only way to do it if we
>insist on using {zmadu/frica fi le ka}.
>
>--And
>