Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:18:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712051218.HAA13700@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: Ronald Hale-Evans Sender: Lojban list From: Ronald Hale-Evans Subject: Are tanru really metaphors? X-To: Lojban List To: John Cowan X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Content-Length: 2355 X-From-Space-Date: Fri Dec 5 07:18:22 1997 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU Lojbanistani-- Perhaps this issue has been discussed before in detail. I have only recently rejoined Lojban-List and have not gone through the archives. If so, please forgive me. If someone can point me to a detailed discussion of this topic, I will go away. I am using an encoded Lojban as the core language for a "Glass Bead Game" (in the sense of the Hermann Hesse novel of the same name; see URL in my signature for details). One of the central aspects of my gameform Kennexions, which preceded the use of Lojban (and may survive it if I can't work this problem out!) is the use of kennings. A *kenning* is a form of metaphor from Old Norse skaldic poetry which greatly resembles tanru (one major reason I chose Lojban as the game language). For example, "flame of battle" or "battle-flame" is a standard kenning for "sword" (the skalds had hundreds of stock kennings). Kennings can be expanded, so that if "din of spears" or "spear-din" means "battle" and "flame of battle" means "sword", then "flame of the din of spears" means "sword". OK? Now all was proceeding apace in Kennexions until I reread one of the early chapters in the refgram (Ch. 2, I think) where John Cowan gives the example of the tanru "jikca toldi" for "social butterly". John says a "jikca toldi" is ALWAYS a type of insect, never a type of person. (A kind of butterfly that lives in a hive, I guess.) HELP! I overlooked this caveat before. "Flame of the din of spears" in Lojban is always going to be "a type of fire associated with the noise that spears make", not a _sword_ at all. This is absolutely NOT what I wanted. (1) If figurative use of tanru is precluded, in what sense are tanru metaphors? (2) And FAR more importantly, what can I do to use real metaphors and figurative language in Lojban without resorting to "((spear din) flame) sword" sorts of periphrasis? "(Spear din) flame)" is fine by itself, but qualifying the tanru as a type of sword totally gives the game away. Egad. Ron Hale-Evans p.s. I'm CCing this message to KENNEX, the mailing list for the group working on Kennexions. Ron Hale-Evans...The Not Ready For Apocalypse Players...rwhe@apocalypse.org I CHING MAILING LIST = http://www.apocalypse.org/~rwhe/hex8.html "KENNEXIONS" GLASS BEAD GAME = http://www.apocalypse.org/~rwhe/gbg.html RON'S INFO-CLOSET = http://www.apocalypse.org/~rwhe/