Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:16:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712052116.QAA03273@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: Ronald Hale-Evans Sender: Lojban list From: Ronald Hale-Evans Subject: Re: Are tanru really metaphors? X-To: Lojban List To: John Cowan In-Reply-To: <199712051946.OAA14751@asylum.apocalypse.org> Status: O X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 1961 X-From-Space-Date: Fri Dec 5 16:16:34 1997 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU At 2:21 PM -0500 12/5/97, Robert Chassell wrote: >... how to express kennings in Lojban, such as "flame of battle" for >"sword"... > >One solution is mentioned in chapter 13 of the refgram: > > Alone among the cmavo of selma'o UI, {pe'a} has a rafsi, namely > {pev}. This rafsi is used in forming figurative (culturally > dependent) lujvo, whose place structure need have nothing to do > with the place structure of the components. > >Perhaps: pevjamnafagri figurative-war-type-of-fire/flame >or pevdambafagri figurative-fighter-type-of-fire/flame > >Another solution would be prefix all your utterances with {pe'a}, thus >telling listeners to interpret what follows figuratively. > > > pe'a PEhA start figurative > start figurative (non-literal) speech/text > > po'a POhA end figurative > end figurative (non-literal) speech/text Thanks, Bob! These are both great suggestions, and neatly solve my problem. I haven't made it that far in the refgram yet. (I'm using a hardcopy of the refgram from the website. I hope the "real" refgram -- please send 'em soon, Lojbab -- has an index so we can look up key terms like "figurative language".) I thought of another possible solution. How's this? "le jamnafagri" means "that which I describe as a battle-flame". Does this do the trick or does it imply possible duplicity or arbitrariness? Incidentally, I don't mean to correct my Lojban betters (even if I could), but isn't the full 5-letter rafsi only used at the end of a lujvo? If so, then aren't "[pev]jamnafagri" and "[pev]dambafagri" illegal lujvo, because they use "jamna" and "damba"? Ron Ron Hale-Evans...The Not Ready For Apocalypse Players...rwhe@apocalypse.org I CHING MAILING LIST = http://www.apocalypse.org/~rwhe/hex8.html "KENNEXIONS" GLASS BEAD GAME = http://www.apocalypse.org/~rwhe/gbg.html RON'S INFO-CLOSET = http://www.apocalypse.org/~rwhe/