Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 01:06:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801270606.BAA26521@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: x4 of djuno (was: Re: Summary so far on DJUNO) X-To: a.rosta@UCLAN.AC.UK X-cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan X-UIDL: fe5bcf87251b42724b7780e7990b8ae6 X-Mozilla-Status: 8011 X-From-Space-Date: Wed Jan 28 09:34:19 1998 X-From-Space-Address: - >>From where I am standing, it looks as if Jorge, & I, and John, >and others think that, in accordance with the baseline, "djuno" >means "know". You, on the other hand, have sought to persuade us >that, contrary to the baseline, it means "be convinced that". I'm sorry, but the baselining does not affect this issue. The baselining froze the keywords - which have many times been stated NOT to be exact synonyms, and the place structures, however loosely defined. Thus far, all of these things are only stated in English language terms, but I should hope that we have made it quite clear that the use of English words in writing the definitions is NOT intended to force all the semantic implications of trhose English words onto the Lojban. The word djuno approximates the meaning of English "know" compounded by the requirement for certain additional relationships (a thing known, a subject, and an epistemology) to also be present. equally significant is the absence of a place relating to a speaker - hence my claim that the speaker's recognition of the knowledge as truth is NOT significant, whether it be so for English "know" (and I think there has been some evidence that even for English that claim is only fuzzily true). We CANNOT yet define the specific semantics of the Lojban words - how they divide up semantic space - sufficiently to "baseline" them. I do not believe that we can do so with less than the prescribed 5 years minimum of usage, and even then it will depend on people getting free enough of English so that their Lojban usages are not mere loan-translations of English thoughts, which is what they are for most people right now. I think that the baseline does say that djuno has 4 places. It is clear that the x1 is an agent/experiencer (depending on your attitude regarding the nature of knowing). It is clear that the x2 is a du'u which in at least some universe of discourse cvould be true. It is clear that x3 is a "subject", a generality from which x2 is taken as a specific fact. It s clear that x4 speaks to eother the truth or the knower's knowing - I prefer the latter, but others seem to prefer the former. They are only different if we are talking about knower-dependent truths (and for these it is not clear that "jetnu" can properly express them, so that djuno -> jetnu becomes nonsense for such cases.) If I correct someone's word choice in Lojban, it will NOT be on the basis of the exact English words chosen for the baseline gismu list, but on the basis of the perceived meaning which I tried to express. I recognize that this limits the effectiveness of the baseline, but I also claim that, while my intentions can go on record when I make such statements, they have no more binding effect than thoise of any other Lojbanist in evolving the meaning of the gismu over the next secveral years - all I am saying is what my occasionally imperfect English was TRYING to get across. And of course for those who choose to be nervous about this, I do not see that this will make the language "change" in any significant way from whatever it is now, or whatever it would be if the English phrasing were somewhat more accepted as being semantically rigorous. What it hopefully WILL prevent is large numbers of the sort of argument we havce been having regarding djuno, where the various sides are inferring their positions based on subtleties in the English semantic definition of "know". lojbab ---- lojbab lojbab@access.digex.net Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/" Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.