Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:50:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801111950.OAA02796@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: mark.vines@wholefoods.com Sender: Lojban list From: Mark Vines Subject: Re: knowledge and belief X-To: LOJBAN@CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU To: John Cowan In-Reply-To: Steven Belknap "Re: knowledge and belief" (Jan 9, 6:37pm) X-UIDL: d8b143aa86c5bec619fed121ad6f8d73 Status: RO X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 1805 X-From-Space-Date: Mon Jan 12 15:56:38 1998 X-From-Space-Address: - la stivn. spuda mi di'e > I find that I fall into neither the logically minded > nor the pragmatically minded as you have described them. mi spuda la stivn. di'e Excellent! > However, I am struggling with the use of . I fear > that you are projecting all All? Hardly. > of the various definitions and semantics of the English > word "know" on to the lojban word . Since the Lojban gismu is defined in terms of the English word "know", I suppose that some degree of cultural or semantic contamination is inevitable, especially in a learner like myself. But I suspect that this is a rather peripheral issue with respect to our current debate. > But has only one (very terse) definition, is a > word in a radically different language, and we are > struggling to discover how to use it in a way which is > distinct from other gismu, yet still has utility for > description of se djuno (knowledge). Your perception of the way that {djuno} ought to be distinct - that it requires {le djuno} to be justified in believing {le se djuno} to be true - seems overly restrictive to me. Defined in that way, IMO {djuno} will have very little utility. > Jorge suggests that the x4 place is superfluous; Jorge? Is that really what you're suggesting? If so, I disagree. How can anyone know anything except by some epistemology? > I am trying to figure out what it tells us about the word; > lojbab suggests that le nu visku or similar "epistemologies" > will suffice. My position is closer to lojbab's. Indeed, when I suggested that a schema might belong in the x4 place, I didn't mean to say that schema belongs there _Instead_ of epistemology; I meant to suggest that a schema might be one of many acceptable epistemologies that could be used as {le ve djuno}. co'omi'e markl.