Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:42:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801271642.LAA11282@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: And Rosta Sender: Lojban list From: And Rosta Organization: University of Central Lancashire Subject: Re: x4 of djuno (was: Re: Summary so far on DJUNO) X-To: LOJBAN@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan X-UIDL: 4caf64b0f4d4091756adc090fd40f12e X-Mozilla-Status: 8011 X-From-Space-Date: Wed Jan 28 09:36:24 1998 X-From-Space-Address: - Lojbab: > >>From where I am standing, it looks as if Jorge, & I, and John, > >and others think that, in accordance with the baseline, "djuno" > >means "know". You, on the other hand, have sought to persuade us > >that, contrary to the baseline, it means "be convinced that". > > I'm sorry, but the baselining does not affect this issue. The baselining > froze the keywords - which have many times been stated NOT to be exact > synonyms, and the place structures, however loosely defined. Thus far, > all of these things are only stated in English language terms, but I should hope that we have made it quite clear that the use of English words in writing > the definitions is NOT intended to force all the semantic implications of > trhose English words onto the Lojban. The word djuno approximates the > meaning of English "know" compounded by the requirement for certain > additional relationships (a thing known, a subject, and an epistemology) > to also be present. I accept all this. However, if we find that there is a candidate meaning for "djuno" which is compatible with (a) the keyword, (b) the place structure, (d) usage, and (e) the necessity for the meaning to differ from other gismu's, then I think this automatically beats a candidate meaning that fails to satisfy criteria (a) or (d). > equally significant is the absence of a place relating to > a speaker - hence my claim that the speaker's recognition of the knowledge > as truth is NOT significant, whether it be so for English "know" (and I think > there has been some evidence that even for English that claim is only > fuzzily true). Why should "djuno" have a speaker place? Pinxe lacks one, yet the speaker is claiming that x2 of pinxe is liquid, just as with djuno the speaker is claiming that x2 is true. --And