Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:07:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801211707.MAA28522@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: And Rosta Sender: Lojban list From: And Rosta Organization: University of Central Lancashire Subject: Re: Summary so far on DJUNO X-To: LOJBAN@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan X-UIDL: 12e73aac6ef9287aa7b0a8022f765b7a X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 1711 X-From-Space-Date: Wed Jan 21 12:09:30 1998 X-From-Space-Address: - John: > > 1. Jorge is completely correct about the meaning of "know", but > > not everyone has managed to realize it. > > Agreed. > > > 2. "Djuno" is in the baseline keyword-defined as "know", and > > all of the considerable usage of "djuno" has been in such a > > way that it could be faithfully translated by "know". > > Agreed. > > > 3. "Knowing", unlike the official place-structure of "djuno", has > > no "epistemology" argument. [As John has pointed out, this is > > not actually an epistemology argument but a metaphysics argument.] > > In other words, the x4 place is "how x2 is true" rather than "how x1 > knows". > > > "djuno" > > asserts that x1 beliefs x2 to be true about x3 within metaphysics > > x4, and it presupposes that x2 is true. > > Yes, except that not just every true belief counts as knowledge: > "George knows that there is life on Jupiter" is false even if > "George believes there is life on Jupiter" and "There is life on > Jupiter" are both true. The presupposition of truth must be > justifiable. > > Furthermore, not even all justified true beliefs are knowledge, as I > have explained before: "Sam and Frank know that the European war is > over" was false (a justified false belief) on 7 November 1918 in New > York (because the war was not over), and equally false on 12 November > in Bermuda (even though the war was now over). I don't know whether I agree or not. Either way, this point is a refinement of my more general point, which is that DJUNO means "know" AND has a metaphysics place. We can then go on to discuss what *precisely* counts as knowledge, but it ceases to be a Lojban-specific issue (except to the extent that DJUNO involves knowledge).