Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:26:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801212126.QAA09770@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: "Engdahl, Rod" Sender: Lojban list From: "Engdahl, Rod" Subject: Re: Knowledge and Belief X-To: lojban post To: John Cowan X-UIDL: 681dda240992c52c00f1b87f73617467 X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 2427 X-From-Space-Date: Wed Jan 21 16:25:01 1998 X-From-Space-Address: - On the other hand, when we say: "I (x1) know that (x2) (x3) according to (x4)." that is a true statement. Once we give a context of a (even internally consistent) model, direct correspondence with reality is not necessarily required. Later, when we learn the flaw in the model, and replace it with a Copernican or Keplerian model and say: "I (x1) know that (x2) (x3) according to (x4)." what in fact we have done is to replace the underlying model, which in this example cannot be distinguished from the belief structure. In the above example, the passage of time has nothing to do with the truth values. It may very well be that x4 cannot be omitted for djuno if we are being precise in our statements. Now, if we had someone from those times making that statement within the context of the times, perhaps the belief structure argument gains more ground . . . ---------- From: John Cowan To: Engdahl, Rod Subject: Re: Knowledge and Belief Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 12:06PM Rob Zook wrote: > But if you look at a past system, you cannot affect the truth value > of that system from the inside. The inside of the system is no longer > accessible. So you cannot help but take a more inclusive view, which > may include a copy of the previous system with a different truth value > but that makes it obvous that your view cannot be compared the to old > system on the same basis. In theory that may be so. But when I repudiate earlier claims of truth, I am not normally adjusting my truth model, simply my belief structure. I do not say: "'Bantha is a cat' used to be true (by my truth model), but now that I hear Bantha bark and howl, I have changed my truth model so that the statement is false." I simply repudiate my previous belief that Bantha is a cat and keep the same truth model. Otherwise we are in the position of saying that the Sun used to orbit the earth, but now does not, a position that lojbab rightly rejects. (We *can* create such time-dependent metaphysicses, but they are decidedly abnormal.) -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (FW 16.5)