Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:06:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801210006.TAA27313@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: Summary so far on DJUNO X-To: a.rosta@UCLAN.AC.UK X-cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan X-UIDL: 6a02a1660fc887de257f5fd0e7364037 Status: U X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 2403 X-From-Space-Date: Wed Jan 21 09:48:08 1998 X-From-Space-Address: - >1. Jorge is completely correct about the meaning of "know", but > not everyone has managed to realize it. > >2. "Djuno" is in the baseline keyword-defined as "know", and > all of the considerable usage of "djuno" has been in such a > way that it could be faithfully translated by "know". > >3. "Knowing", unlike the official place-structure of "djuno", has > no "epistemology" argument. [As John has pointed out, this is > not actually an epistemology argument but a metaphysics argument.] That depends on your definition of "metaphysics" - as I reported, epistemology is the subcategory of metaphysics dealingw ith how we know what we know. >4. There seems to be a general sense that (2) and (3) are > incompatible. > >I would take issue with (4). (2) and (3) are compatible: "djuno" >asserts that x1 beliefs x2 to be true about x3 within metaphysics >x4, and it presupposes that x2 is true. But since truth is not an absolute (at least not in Lojban - unless you mean fat fatci rather than jetnu), this still seems wrong. I may not have access to le djuno's metaphysics/episte,ology, and my own metaphysics/epostemology may not generate the same truths that le djuno's does. I agree with you that Jorge is more or less correct with reagrd to how djuno has been and will be used in practice - pretty much like English "know". But that is because for the most part, the things that we have wanted to say have been translations from English, and/or have been formulated in English before expressing in Lojban. Furthermore there are certain people that are comfortable dealing with multiple ways of knowing, and it is those people who will more likely use Lojban djuno differently than English know. But scientists and computer people, who dominate the Lojban community right now are among the most limiting people I knwo as to what is a knowledge-generating epistemology. So present usage is not a very good guide for the long term. lojbab ---- lojbab lojbab@access.digex.net Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/" Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.