Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:15:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802172115.QAA28655@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: Rob Zook Sender: Lojban list From: Rob Zook Subject: Re: Summary so far on DJUNO X-To: LOJBAN@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan In-Reply-To: <199802140258.SAA21705@gateway.informix.com> X-UIDL: 82ed7ae9df87494fa2881232d65c2b25 X-Mozilla-Status: 8011 X-From-Space-Date: Wed Feb 18 16:02:29 1998 X-From-Space-Address: - At 08:22 PM 2/10/98 -0300, Jorge J. Llamb=EDas wrote: lojbab: >>And YOU are asking ME why Lojban is inherently subjective by default? xorxes: >What I meant is that there is nothing inherently subjective about >Lojban or about English (or objective for that matter). Our beliefs can >be subjective, but "subjective" is not a category that applies to=20 >languages. >Even if you mean that assertions in a language are subjective, that still >applies to the assertions no matter in which language they be made, >so not to Lojban or to English. One can most definitely apply subjectivity to language. Every single language on this planet has it's own cultural relativisms imbedded in it.=20 For example, words like "gestault" have no English translation, one can=20 come close to gestault by translating it as "wholeness" but=20 "wholeness" !=3D "gestault".=20 >I know that's what you think, yes. You also know that's not what I think. > >Your opinion as to the meaning of {djuno} is based on what your >intentions were of what it should mean. > >My opinion as to its meaning is based on what the gi'uste says it means. What you interprate it to mean. >What the gi'uste says does not agree with what your intentions were, >so there is nothing strange in our having different opinions. Given that le gi'uste only says this about djuno: djuno [ jun ju'o ] know x1 knows fact(s) x2 (du'u) about subject x3 by epistemology x4=20 [words usable for epistemology typically have a du'u place; know how=20 to - implying knowledge of method but not necessarily having the ability to practice (=3D tadjyju'o)] (cf. know/familiar with: se=20 slabu, na'e cnino, na'e fange; cmavo list du'o, cilre, certu, facki,=20 jijnu, jimpe, senpi, smadi, kakne, birti, mipri, morji, saske, viska)= =20 FWIW, I think lojbab right on the money here. Rob Z. -------------------------------------------------------- "...That no government, so called, can reasonably be trusted for a moment, or reasonably be supposed to have=20 honest purposes in view, any longer than it depends wholly=20 upon voluntary support." --- Lysander Spooner,=20 No Treason: the Constitution of No Authority