Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:44:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802191944.OAA18328@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: Goran Topic Sender: Lojban list From: Goran Topic Organization: Free Minds Discorporated Subject: Re: Summary so far on DJUNO X-To: Lojban Listserver To: John Cowan X-UIDL: a664069e46ae707dd806846cac31a3ef X-Mozilla-Status: 8011 X-From-Space-Date: Thu Feb 19 15:01:17 1998 X-From-Space-Address: - Translation follows. > >Anyway, more useful than changing the keyword is expanding the proper > >definition with the place structure. E.g. if {djuno} still had > >keyword "know" but was glossed as "x4 convinces x1 that x2 is true of > >x3" [=your definition] then the misunderstanding probably wouldn't > >have arisen. > > True, but I did not forsee this particular debate, and hence did not choose that > wording. And would not have because the standard for the gismu definitions is > to choose wording that keep the elements in their Lojban order. This sometimes > leads to confusing English, but that's life. .i xu de'u .i ja'adi'u .inaja roda rode zo'u ledu'u da birti de cu du ledu'u da djuno de le jai do'e de zo'e .i ga'a mi la'ezo birti cu cmima la'ezo djuno .i zo birti na plixau .i mi roroi lenu pu pilno zo birti ka'e pilno lu djuno zo'e zo'e li'u .i pe'ipei no'i mi jimpe ledu'u zo djuno zo krici frica makau .i tu'a zo birti cu cfipu mi co'o mi'e. goran. Is it true? Because if it is, then "X birti Y" means the same as "X djuno Y (about something in Y, by some epistemology)". AFAICS the meaning of birti is a special case of djuno, and thus useless. For anything I used birti I can use djuno with unspecified topic and reasoning. I understand why djuno and krici are different. birti continues to confuse me.