Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 07:44:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804241144.HAA06443@locke.ccil.org> Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: cenba X-To: jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR X-cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan X-UIDL: 2eed18d80024b305e180a27b1ac8480b X-Mozilla-Status: 8011 Content-Length: 1869 Lines: 41 >Let's consider these examples: > > le selska be le kerfa be la djan cu cenba le ka ce'u du makau > The colour of John's hair changes in what it is. > > le kerfa be la djan cu cenba le ka ce'u skari makau > John's hair changes in what colour it is. >--More-- > > la djan cenba le ka ce'u se kerfa lo skari be makau > John changes in what colour his hair is. > >What is it that changes? Is it the colour? Is it the hair? Is it John? >All of them change. The colour changes most drastically of all, >it is replaced by another colour. The hair changes a little less >drastically, since its colour is an important property but it isn't >its identity. John also changes, though even less dramatically. >And of course we need not stop there. If Mary is John's wife, >we might add: > > la meris cenba le ka ce'u speni lo se kerfa be lo skari be makau > Mary changes in what is the colour of her husband's hair. > >This property may not seem very significant without more context, >but that doesn't mean that the sentence doesn't make sense. >It does. I agree that in general, the closer the property the more >likely it is that we may want to talk about it changing, but we still >can talk about changes in more remote properties. I have no problem with this, but what we usually want to say is the first one (the color changes) probably because it is the most clearcut statement of change. But I don't like le ka du as a statement of what is changing. It is not the du-ness of the hair that is changing, it is the hue or some other aspect of color (skari). I think I can summarize this thread by saying that what you say seems to work but feels wrong for reasons I don't seem to effectively communicate. My own ideas don't seem to work perfectly, but I am unlikely to come up with better ones atr my current level of Lojban inactivity. lojbab