Date:         Sun, 17 May 1998 00:16:24 -0300
Reply-To:     "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From:         "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>
Subject:      Re: properties again
To:           Multiple recipients of list LOJBAN <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
Message-ID: <895375277.1523956.0@listserv.cuny.edu>
Content-Length: 2023
Lines: 49


>Jorge:
>>{le ka ruble} is the property of weakness, not an instance of weakness.
>>I don't think the property can be a cause of anything.

Lojbab:
>Whereas I think that quite often properties bytheir nature cause
consequences.

The property of being weak is a property that some people or things have
and others lack, or that they may have to a certain degree. The property is
not capable of causing anything. The event of having that property, or the
event of lacking that property, can have effects, but the propertry itself
can't.

>Gravitational force is caused by the property of matter in my mind and not
>by events of matter (each being properly instantiated).

The property of being matter causes gravitational force? That doesn't
sound right to me. I would say:

    le nu ko'a e ko'e marji cu rinka le nu ko'a joi ko'e trina simxu
    "The event (state) of ko'a and ko'e being matter causes
    their attracting each other."

I wouldn't replace the event of their being matter by some property,
which I wouldn't even be claiming that ko'a and/or ko'e possess.

If I say {le ka ruble cu rinka le nu ko'a kusru ko'e}, am I saying that
ko'a being weak causes the cruelty towards ko'e, or ko'e being weak
is the cause? Or simply there being a property of weakness has
the effect, even if neither ko'a nor ko'e are weak? How do you explain
the connection between the property of weakness and the cruelty
of ko'a towards ko'e?

>But I am sure you disagree, and we probably will not get anywhere new by
>arguing it.

Well, I always have the hope of convincing others. I know it's unlikely
that I will convince you of anything.

co'o mi'e xorxes