Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:35:44 -0400
Reply-To:     Spigot <spigot@THORAZINE.NEURON.NET>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From:         Spigot <spigot@THORAZINE.NEURON.NET>
Subject:      Hello!  and some questions...
To:           Multiple recipients of list LOJBAN <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
Message-ID: <898979829.112057.0@listserv.cuny.edu>
Content-Length: 4585
Lines: 102


Hello!  I have been interested in lojban off and on for many years.
More off than on.  Recently, I've became interested again, and was
delighted to find that the reference grammar book was done!  I quickly
grabbed a copy.  Its so much easier to learn the language with the
book, not to mention the web site, than it was when I first became
interested around 1992!  Its also nice to know that the language
is 'finished', and won't be changed out from under me while I learn
it.  Great job!

In any case, I am wondering if this list is an appropriate place to
post my attempts to write and translate in lojban.  I have been
trying various ways to translate a poem from a book of zen koans (the
Blue Cliff Record). I'm still a bit hazy on tense.  In hopes that this
is an appropriate place for my questions, I'd like to post what I've
tried and ask some questions.  Please let me know if this isn't
appropriate.  Thanks!

Here is the poem in english (translated from Chinese of course!):

The last word
Is spoken for you;
The time of light and dark pair by pair:
Born of the same lineage, they share the knowledge,
Dying of different lineages, they're utterly separated.
Utterly separated--
Even Yellow Head [Buddha] and Blue Eyes [Bodhidharma] have yet to
        discern.
South, North, East, West, let us return--
And in the depths of the night together look at the snow on the
        thousand crags.


Here is one of my attemps to translate:

le fanmo valsi
zu'o bacru krati do
.i ca'o le gusni jo'u le manku remei ku
mivbi'o fi le pa rinka zu'o leza'i djuno fatri
si'a mrobi'o fi le za'upa rinka zu'o jicmu cliva
.i jicmu cliva
je'u la pelstedu .e la blakanla puze'e na'e sanji
.i.e'o roda ve'e se'ixru
.ije ri catlu lei snime poi ke'a cpana le so'i cmanji'o ca ze'uca nicte

Some questions:
1.  Tenses:  Twice in here I want to say that one thing occured when
another thing occured.  This calls for sumti tcita, right?  In reading
the book, it seems that sumti tcita *have* to come after the bridi,
is this true?  This is how I handled it in the last line -- the
sumti tcita comes after the bridi, even though its the other way
around in the english version.  I tried the opposite in line 3 --
I put the sumti tcita first, ended it with a <ku>, and then
continued with the bridi.  I'm assuming this is incorrect.  If it is
incorrect, is there a way to put a sumti tcita tense *before* the
main bridi?  My only guess is that <jai> and <fai> might do it (see
below).
2.  Does the third line mean what I hope it means?  Something like,
"During the whole time when light and dark are a pair" ?
3.  The <si'a> on line 5 -- does the tense from line 3 carry over
onto line 5?  If that time tense on line 3 is incorrect, then this
question is irrelevant...
4.  Line 6 seems tricky.  I used "puze'e na'e sanji" to mean "have
yet to discern".  I take it to literally mean "forever up to now,
not discerned", while leaving open the possibility (however remote!)
of future discerning.  This seems analogous to "have yet to...",
but I'm not completely confident in it, is there a better way?

My first attempt at the last two lines was this:

doi lei snanu .e lei berti .e lei stuna .e lei stici .i.e'o pe'u
        ma'a se'ixru
gi'e lenu midju be le nicte cu jai ca fai ma'a catlu fe lei snime poi
        ke'a cpana le panonono cmana jipno

Is this an appropriate use of <jai> and <fai>?  Is this the way to
put a complicated tense in front of a bridi?  Also, does the first
line here really mean "All of you to the south, to the north, to the
east, and to the west, please let's return"?  I found this to clunky
and tried ".i.e'o roda ve'e se'ixru" instead...

Thanks for any replies.  I am enjoying learning this language a great
deal.  It seems to be a language I actually *can* learn on my own.
My attempts to learn natural languages on my own have failed in part
because of the daunting complexity to be learned -- be it grammar,
vocabulary or cultural/stylistic conventions.  I think lojban is a
language I actually *can* teach myself, more or less, and maybe I can
even participate in the creation of stylistic conventions!

Paul


--
P a u l  F l y
http://www.neuron.net/~pfly