Received: from spooler by stryx.demon.co.uk (Mercury/32 v2.01); 13 Jun 98 21:28:33 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-21.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.6) by stryx.demon.co.uk (Mercury/32 v2.01); 13 Jun 98 21:28:29 +0000 Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for ia@stryx.demon.co.uk id 897711063:20:04998:3; Sat, 13 Jun 98 04:11:03 GMT Received: from listserv.cuny.edu ([128.228.100.10]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa2115713; 13 Jun 98 4:10 GMT Received: from listserv (listserv.cuny.edu) by listserv.cuny.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <2.000005EB@listserv.cuny.edu>; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 0:12:52 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:54:51 -0300 Reply-To: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" Sender: Lojban list From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" Subject: Re: loi jei loi nu klama cu muvdu X-To: lojban To: Multiple recipients of list LOJBAN Message-ID: <897711059.2115713.0@listserv.cuny.edu> X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 7 Content-Length: 5558 Lines: 140 la kolin cusku di'e >I'm not going to try this in Lojban. >I don't agree with your analysis, but I do agree that there is something >there that needs some thought. Here is a different analysis. I agree with much of your analysis, and I definitely like the idea of putting some thought into how FAhA and tags in general work. >Note 1: the case of ne'a and re'o is far from clear. In particular, I do >not know what the difference is. I believe it's the same difference that exists between jibni and lamji, namely that re'o/lamji require the two things related to be in contact and ne'a/jibni don't. >I now suggest that when mo'i is used with any of these, it expresses a >ve muvdu unless the FAhA is -extended AND -directional, in which case it >expresses a se muvdu. [Here is where I disagree with Jorge: I claim that >mo'iri'u expresses a (translatable) direction in space, not a direction >towards some point to the right of me.] Let me give a fuller account. My main objective is to have as much a systematic way of understanding tags as possible. First let's start with bare FAhA. They work very much like PU: le gerku cu bajra ba le nundarxi The dog runs after the beating. le nu le gerku cu bajra cu balvi le nundarxi The dog's running happens after the beating. le gerku cu bajra ne'i le zdani The dog runs inside the house. le nu le gerku cu bajra cu nenri le zdani The dog's running happens inside the house. le gerku cu bajra zu'a le tricu The dog runs left of the tree. le nu le gerku cu bajra cu zunle le tricu The dog's running happens to the left of the tree. le gerku cu bajra te'e le rirxe The dog runs along the riverside. le nu le gerku cu bajra cu jimte le rirxe The dog's running happens bordering the river. For most FAhA there is a matching gismu: ca'u crane ti'a trixe zu'a zunle ri'u pritu ga'u gapre ni'a cnita ne'i nenri ru'u sruri pa'o pagre ne'a jibni te'e jimte re'o lamji zo'a penmi bu'u zvati be'a berti ne'u snanu du'a stuna vu'a stici And also we have: fa'a selfa'a to'o selterfa'a le gerku cu bajra fa'a le tricu The dog runs towards the tree. le nu le gerku cu bajra cu selfa'a le tricu The dog's running happens in the direction of the tree. le gerku cu bajra to'o le tricu The dog runs away from the tree. le nu le gerku cu bajra cu selterfa'a le tricu The dog's running happens in the direction away from the tree. I'm not sure about {zo'i} and {ze'o}. From the note in page 253 of the refgram I suppose that {zo'i ko'a} means the same as {fa'a mi to'o ko'a}, and {ze'o ko'a} means the same as {to'o mi to'o ko'a}, but I'm not sure. The same sort of thing can be done with other tags, such as BAI tags: le gerku cu bajra mu'i le nunterpa The dog runs because of fear. le nu le gerku cu bajra cu selmu'i le nunterpa The dog's running happens motivated by fear. Now, what happens with {mo'i} tags? I would like to find a similar pattern. For example: le gerku cu cmoni mo'izu'a le tricu ?The dog barks while moving left of the tree. le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu _fo_ le zunle be le tricu Or is it: ?The dog barks while moving all the way to the left of the tree. le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu _fe_ le zunle be le tricu I think the first makes more sense, and the second can easily be obtained with {mo'izu'afa'a}, moving-left-towards. le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu fo le selfa'a be le zunle be le tricu The dog's barking happens in movement along a path that is oriented towards the left of the tree. The meaning of tags directly on the selbri can be obtained from the simple rule: { broda} = {broda zo'e}, i.e. with the obvious-from-context reference. Then we have: le gerku cu mo'ica'ufa'a bajra The dog barks moving towards the front of the obvious thing (probably itself), i.e. moving forward. This of course doesn't match the refgram's gloss, which would give "moving forward" for {mo'ica'u}, without {fa'a}. As a last note, I'd like to point out that the only tags that don't always follow the rule { broda} = {broda zo'e} are the members ofZAhO, although some speakers do follow the rule even then. For example, some will interpret {co'a ko'a} as "starting at ko'a" and others will interpret it as "happening at the start of ko'a". The first is the more systematic interpretation, but unfortunately the second is the more official one. co'o mi'e xorxes