Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:29:17 -0300
Reply-To:     "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From:         "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>
Subject:      Re: loi jei loi nu klama cu muvdu
To:           Multiple recipients of list LOJBAN <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
Message-ID: <897755778.111830.0@listserv.cuny.edu>
Content-Length: 4168
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Lojbab:
>>                le gerku cu cmoni mo'izu'a le tricu
 >
>My intention, if not contradicted by the Book, was
>
>                  The dog barks, while moving to the left from (at/near/the
>                  direction of) the tree.
>                  le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu klama le zunle
>                   [fe] le zunle [be le tricu]
>                   [fi] le tricu
>
>with the following useful application
>
>                le gerku cu cmoni mo'iru'u le tricu
>                The dog barks while running around the tree
>                le gerku cu cmoni mo'ifa'a le tricu
>                The dog barks while running toward the tree.
>
>etc.  The tagged sumti in effect becomes a secondary space-time reference
>(secondary, because the primary space-time reference will determine  what
>direction "to the left from the tree"is.

I agree with your interpretations of both {mo'iru'u} and {mo'ifa'a},
but I don't understand why you call them applications of the rule
you give for {mo'izu'a}, they don't follow that rule, they follow the
rule I was giving (i.e. that mo'i tags the ve muvdu, not the se muvdu):

                le gerku cu cmoni mo'iru'u le tricu
                The dog barks while moving around the tree.
                le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu _fo_ le sruri be le tricu
                The dog's barking happens moving along a path that
                surrounds the tree.

                le gerku cu cmoni mo'ifa'a le tricu
                The dog barks while moving toward the tree.
                le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu _fo_ le selfa'a be le tricu
                The dog's barking happens moving along a path that
                is directed towards the tree.

Using for {mo'iru'u} the rule you give for {mo'izu'a} we'd get instead:

                  le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu
                   [fe] le sruri [be le tricu]
                   [fi] le tricu
                The dog's barking happens moving to the surrounding
                 of the tree from the tree.

I think we all agree that that one is wrong. The interpretation that you
want for {mo'izu'a} is obtained with my interpretation in this way:

                le gerku cu cmoni mo'izu'afa'a je mo'ito'o le tricu
                The dog barks moving towards the left of, and away
                from, the tree.

Here is another interesting pair:

                le gerku cu cmoni mo'ine'i le zdani
                The dog barks moving inside the house.
                le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu fo le nenri be le zdani
                The dog's barking happens moving along a path that is
                inside the house.

                le gerku cu cmoni mo'ine'ifa'a le zdani
                The dog barks moving into the house.
                le nu le gerku cu cmoni cu muvdu fo le selfa'a be le
                nenri be le zdani
                The dog's barking happens moving along a path that is
                in the direction of the inside of the house.

Again, this does not match exactly the glosses in the refgram, which
give "moving into" for {mo'ine'i} and do not allow a possibility for
"moving inside".

In summary, we all seem to agree about the use of {mo'iru'u}, i.e.
moving along a path that surrounds the reference. We also agree
about {mo'ifa'a}, i.e. moving along a path that is directed towards
the reference.

But what happens with the FAhA that Colin classifies as -extended?
The gloss in the refgram suggests that they incorporate a {fa'a} when
used with {mo'i}. So {mo'ine'i} is glossed as "moving into" which
is what I would use for {mo'ine'ifa'a}, and {mo'izu'a} is glossed as
"moving leftward" which is what I would use for {mo'izu'afa'a}.

co'o mi'e xorxes