Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1998 14:02:59 -0300
Reply-To:     "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>
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From:         "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@INTERMEDIA.COM.AR>
Subject:      Re: Beginners' lujvo
To:           Multiple recipients of list LOJBAN <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
Message-ID: <905706282.214473.0@listserv.cuny.edu>
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la robin cusku di'e
> I actually think having people new to the language coining lujvo
>is an excellent way to develop the language, despite the large number of
>dud lujvo that will inevitably arise.

I agree. I also think it's an excellent way to develop one's
command of the language. And it's a good idea not to give
your intended meaning but to let others have a go at working
it out, so that you can test whether you're being successful in
expressing what you mean.

Here's how I interpret your lujvo, and how I work out their
place structures:

>vanjikru

"brandy"   x1 is a quantity of brandy distilled from wine/fermented
                  fruits/grapes x2.

This is probably the most common type of lujvo with regard to place
structures, sometimes called a "be-lujvo", because the expansion
of the lujvo woule be something like this:

ko'a ko'e vanjikru = ko'a jikru be lo vanju be ko'e

If we call the places of jikru j1 and j2 and the places of vanju
v1 and v2, we can represent the structure of the lujvo as
j1 (j2=v1) v2. The brackets indicate that the place does not
appear as a place of the lujvo, as is clear from the expansion
above.

be-lujvo can be further subdivided into befe-lujvo, befi-lujvo, etc,
depending on which place of the main component of the lujvo
is filled by the modifying component.

>kujmikce

"nurse"   x1 nurses x2 for ailment x3 with treatment/cure x4

This is another common type of lujvo, sometimes called a
"je-lujvo". The expansion would be:

ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o kujmikce =
                          ko'a mikce ko'e ko'i ko'o gi'e kurji ko'e

(I use {gi'e} rather than {je} in the expansion to avoid the use
of tanru, which cause more difficuty in clearing up meanings.)
Using the same notation as before, we can represent the
place structure as m1=k1 m2=k2 m3 m4. This time none of
the places of the components disappears from the lujvo, and
the reason is again clear from the expansion.

>sakcuvbi'o

I have no idea what common English word this may relate to,
but I will analyse it anyway. Since it's a three-component lujvo,
the conventional grouping is (sakcuv)bi'o, so let's first look at
the first part:

ko'a ko'e ko'i sakcurve = ko'a curve le ka ce'u sakci ko'e ko'i
"pure sucker"   x1 is pure/unmitigated in sucking fluid/gas x2
                           from x3.

This is another common type: a "beleka-lujvo". There are many
gismu with place structures of the form "x1 is ---- in property x2",
and these tend to be very productive of  "beleka-lujvo".

Now, for the second part of the lujvo:

ko'a ko'e ko'i sakcuvbi'o = ko'a binxo lo sakcurve be ko'e bei ko'i
"become a pure sucker"  x1 becomes a pure sucker of x2 from x3.

This is a befe-lujvo like the one in the first example. (You can add
an "under conditions x4" place to keep all the places of {binxo},
but since I ignore "under conditions" and "by standard" places
in gismu, I also ignore them in lujvo.)

 >One word I had problems with, possibly because it is so culturally
>specific, was "teenager".  I had thought of "citmakcu", but this would
>be simply "young adult" and could include, depending on culture, anyone
>from 15 to 30.  Any suggestions?

One possibility might be to go literal:

ko'a pavycibybizypavysozna'a = ko'a nanca li paci bi'i li paso
                                                        x1 is in years
betwen 13 and 19.

but I would never use such a lujvo. Another suggestion:

ko'a ko'e ko'i ma'urba'o = ko'a banro le ka ce'u makcu ko'e kei ko'i
             x1 is a teenager/adolescent/growing up into maturity in
property x2
             from state x3.

co'o mi'e xorxes