Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:08:09 -0700
Reply-To:     Robin Turner <robin@BILKENT.EDU.TR>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From:         Robin Turner <robin@BILKENT.EDU.TR>
Subject:      Re: Beginners' lujvo
To:           Multiple recipients of list LOJBAN <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
Message-ID: <906109910.1124420.0@listserv.cuny.edu>
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la xorxes cusku di'e

> Here's how I interpret your lujvo, and how I work out their
> place structures:
>
> >vanjikru
>
> "brandy"   x1 is a quantity of brandy distilled from wine/fermented
>                   fruits/grapes x2.
>
> This is probably the most common type of lujvo with regard to place
> structures, sometimes called a "be-lujvo", because the expansion
> of the lujvo woule be something like this:
>
> ko'a ko'e vanjikru = ko'a jikru be lo vanju be ko'e
>
> If we call the places of jikru j1 and j2 and the places of vanju
> v1 and v2, we can represent the structure of the lujvo as
> j1 (j2=v1) v2. The brackets indicate that the place does not
> appear as a place of the lujvo, as is clear from the expansion
> above.
>
> be-lujvo can be further subdivided into befe-lujvo, befi-lujvo, etc,
> depending on which place of the main component of the lujvo
> is filled by the modifying component.
>
> >kujmikce
>
> "nurse"   x1 nurses x2 for ailment x3 with treatment/cure x4
>
> This is another common type of lujvo, sometimes called a
> "je-lujvo". The expansion would be:
>
> ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o kujmikce =
>                           ko'a mikce ko'e ko'i ko'o gi'e kurji ko'e
>
> (I use {gi'e} rather than {je} in the expansion to avoid the use
> of tanru, which cause more difficuty in clearing up meanings.)
> Using the same notation as before, we can represent the
> place structure as m1=k1 m2=k2 m3 m4. This time none of
> the places of the components disappears from the lujvo, and
> the reason is again clear from the expansion.
>
>

Yes, these are what I had in mind, though I must admit I found the
explanation of the place structure confusing!

> >sakcuvbi'o
>
> I have no idea what common English word this may relate to,
> but I will analyse it anyway. Since it's a three-component lujvo,
> the conventional grouping is (sakcuv)bi'o, so let's first look at
> the first part:
>
> ko'a ko'e ko'i sakcurve = ko'a curve le ka ce'u sakci ko'e ko'i
> "pure sucker"   x1 is pure/unmitigated in sucking fluid/gas x2
>                            from x3.
>
> This is another common type: a "beleka-lujvo". There are many
> gismu with place structures of the form "x1 is ---- in property x2",
> and these tend to be very productive of  "beleka-lujvo".
>
> Now, for the second part of the lujvo:
>
> ko'a ko'e ko'i sakcuvbi'o = ko'a binxo lo sakcurve be ko'e bei ko'i
> "become a pure sucker"  x1 becomes a pure sucker of x2 from x3.
>
> This is a befe-lujvo like the one in the first example. (You can add
> an "under conditions x4" place to keep all the places of {binxo},
> but since I ignore "under conditions" and "by standard" places
> in gismu, I also ignore them in lujvo.)
>

Actually, I was thinking of "vacuum cleaner".  Oh well!

>
>
>
>  >One word I had problems with, possibly because it is so culturally
> >specific, was "teenager".  I had thought of "citmakcu", but this would
> >be simply "young adult" and could include, depending on culture, anyone
> >from 15 to 30.  Any suggestions?
>
> One possibility might be to go literal:
>
> ko'a pavycibybizypavysozna'a = ko'a nanca li paci bi'i li paso
>                                                         x1 is in years
> betwen 13 and 19.
>
> but I would never use such a lujvo. Another suggestion:
>
> ko'a ko'e ko'i ma'urba'o = ko'a banro le ka ce'u makcu ko'e kei ko'i
>              x1 is a teenager/adolescent/growing up into maturity in
> property x2
>              from state x3.
>

This sounds like the best solution short of a fu'ivla, which is what you
would need if you wanted the peculiarly Anglo-Saxon connotations of
"teenager".

le nu do pu sidju ve ckire

co'o mi'e robin.