Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 09:42:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@access.digex.net>
Message-Id: <199811281442.JAA29822@access5.digex.net>
To: robin@Bilkent.EDU.TR
Cc: lojban@onelist.com
Mailing-List: list lojban@onelist.com; contact lojban-owner@onelist.com
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Subject: [lojban] Re: Descriptors
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From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@access.digex.net>

>>       My doubts in these cases rely on "lei/le'i". The Reference
>> Grammar defines them as:
>>       - lei => "... a mass I describe as ..."
>>         instead of: "... a mass OF THOSE I describe as ..."
>>       - le'i=> "... a set described as ..."
>>         instead of: "... a set OF THOSE I describe as ..."
>>       I know this difference may sound insignificant, but, since
>> Lojban is a so "thorough" language, I thought this could make some
>> difference.
>
>You're right, it ought to make a difference.  My interpretion would be:
>
>le ci gerku cu bajra
>Three things which I term 'dogs' run, but not necessarily in the same
>direction, or even in the same place or at the same time.
>
>lei ci gerku cu bajra
>the mass of three things which I term 'dogs' run together
>
>le'i ci gerku cu bajra [?]
>a set I have defined as three dogs, runs [?]  


Seeing Robin's answer, I think I understand the question better.
The reference grammar wording is better than the suggested alternative,
and there is indeed a difference.

In the "lei" example there is a set with 3 members that is being
massified.  The set is identified by having its elements described as dogs.
There is no indication that the set is a complete set of all things that
the speaker describes as dogs.  Likewise for le'i, the set may not include
all that the speaker would so describe.

A complete wording would then be

a set/mass (as appropriate) I have in mind whose members/components I
describe as

But I think that this wording would be confusing to many people without
explanation, and would also be too long for a tabular listing.

The key difference is that if you say "ro lei" or ro le'i" you are
not implicitly talking about all that you could describe, but only the
specific in-mind set. 

lojbab
----
lojbab                                                lojbab@access.digex.net
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA                        703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab
    or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/"
    Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.

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