Received: from spooler by stryx.demon.co.uk (Mercury/32 v2.01); 9 Nov 98 18:22:38 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-21.mail.demon.net (194.217.242.6) by stryx.demon.co.uk (Mercury/32 v2.01); 9 Nov 98 18:22:34 +0000 Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for ia@stryx.demon.co.uk id 910536570:20:13234:2; Sun, 08 Nov 98 14:49:30 GMT Received: from pop.onelist.com ([209.207.164.31]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa2012948; 8 Nov 98 14:48 GMT Received: (qmail 30029 invoked by alias); 8 Nov 1998 14:48:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 30009 invoked from network); 8 Nov 1998 14:48:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.compulink.co.uk) (194.153.0.20) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 1998 14:48:13 -0000 Received: from solipsys.compulink.co.uk (solipsys.compulink.co.uk [194.153.10.165]) by mail.compulink.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA08037 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 14:48:38 GMT X-Envelope-From: C.D.Wright@solipsys.compulink.co.uk Message-Id: <199811081448.OAA08037@mail.compulink.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: C.D.Wright@solipsys.compulink.co.uk To: lojban@onelist.com Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 14:45:50 +0000 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Mailing-List: list lojban@onelist.com; contact lojban-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@onelist.com Precedence: bulk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: [lojban] Translation help required ... X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 7 1 Y0004C.CNM Content-Length: 6631 Lines: 220 From: C.D.Wright@solipsys.compulink.co.uk coi rodo Forgive me for posting in English. Before trying to post in lojban I've been trying to understand some of the messsages posted by others to learn from their mistakes, and thereby avoid having people send the same corrections over and over again. In attempting to understand the recent message from Minots, however, I've been having more trouble than with most. My suspicion is that he is trying to express some complex ideas and may be getting some of the grammar wrong in the attempt, although I can hardly criticise when I don't even try! (yet!) I've been using 2;5;33moi ke lojbo genturfa'i to generate a parse, and then looking things up in somewhat old versions of gismu and cmavo lists. Here's the original: ============================================================ > Date sent: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 23:15:12 -0600 > From: Minots > Subject: talsa > Originally to: jbomriste > > coi rodo > > mi fanva le'i cizra smuni jufra > .i le pa jufra cu dukse nandu mi > .i mi talsa rodo le nu do ka'e fanva zo'e > tu'e zoi How many of you is there? tu'u > .i le nu zo do cu pa sezvi gi'e le sezvi cu cumki > na'e pa xadni ja tarmi kei cu smuni > .i ti'e la lojban na cu jitri'u le sidbo cusku > .i ganai je'u gi ko cusku le sidbo ta'i > le nu le prenu cu cusku le sidbo kei > > co'o be'i la djan. maynat. ============================================================ I would welcome criticisms of my attempts at analysing that post. I'll take it one "sentence" at a time. ========== coi rodo - Greetings all. ========== Sentence: mi fanva le'i cizra smuni jufra Parse : (mi {fanva }) mi me fanva translate le'i the set described cizra strange smuni meaning jufra sentence Translation: I am translating some odd sentences. ========== Sentence: le pa jufra cu dukse nandu mi Parse : ({le } cu { mi}) le the described pa 1 jufra sentence cu selbri separator dukse excess nandu difficult mi me I don't understand what the "1" is doing here. Should it be "pamoi = first"? How does this break down? Does this translate as "The first sentence is excessively difficult for me" ? ========== Sentence: mi talsa rodo le nu do ka'e fanva zo'e tu'e zoi How many of you is there? tu'u I've excised the "tu'e ... tu'u" text scope here to get the following parse: Parse : (mi {talsa <[ro do] [le (nu {do <[ka'e fanva] zo'e>})]>}) mi me talsa challenge ro each do you le the described nu event abstract do you ka'e innately capable of fanva translate zo'e unspecif it I'm guessing that this comes out as " I challenge you all in property of the event that you are inately capabale of translating it. " I'm not sure what the zo'e is doing there. Shouldn't it simply be the text, since that's the x2 of fanva? ========== Sentence: le nu zo do cu pa sezvi gi'e le sezvi cu cumki na'e pa xadni ja tarmi kei cu smuni I can't get the parser to accept this at all. Here is a simple gloss, with lots of associated questions. le nu zo do ; "do" as a word cu pa sezvi ; What does the "pa" mean here? "Me alone"? gi'e ; and le sezvi ; "the self" ?? cu cumki ; maybe na'e ; scalar contrary - what is the scale or set? pa ; What does this "1" mean? xadni ja tarmi ; body or shape kei cu smuni ; ... is the meaning. Also, there seems to be a mis-spelling in the original, since my lists have ... {sevzi}{sez}{se'i} - self I long for the day when I make no spelling mistakes. ========== Sentence: ti'e la lojban na cu jitri'u le sidbo cusku I think the "na cu" should be "cu na", giving Parse : (ti'e { cu <[na jitri'u] [le (sidbo cusku)]>}) ti'e I hear la that named lojban ? cu selbri separator na bridi negator jitri'u +limit+restrain le the described sidbo idea cusku express Translation: I've heard that lojban puts no limits on the expression of ideas. ( Personal note: I don't believe that this was the original intention. I believe the original intention was to create something *different* about the language, and to make it as expressive. ) ========== Sentence: ganai je'u gi ko cusku le sidbo ta'i le nu le prenu cu cusku le sidbo kei The parser refuses this, although I can get it to work if I leave out the initial logical connectives ... Parse : (ko {cusku <[le sidbo] [ta'i (le {nu <[le prenu] cu [cusku (le sidbo)]> kei})]>} ) ko imperative cusku express le the described sidbo idea ta'i by method le the described nu event abstract le the described prenu person cu selbri separator cusku express le the described sidbo idea kei end abstraction The initial part glosses as ... ganai fore only if je'u truth gi connective medial So, I get completely lost in this one and would appreciate some help. The best I get is ... " This is only true if You(imperative) express the idea by method A, where method A is the event of a person expressing the idea. " ??? What does that mean? ========== co'o la kolin. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Did you ever want to participate in video chats, send real-time video and video mail? Now you can, AND at a super low price--ONLY $89.95! http://orders.xoom.com/zvc/emzvc921