X-Digest-Num: 117 Message-ID: <44114.117.647.959273824@eGroups.com> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 13:19:46 -0400 From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group Subject: Re: di'e preti zo nu X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 647 Content-Length: 4086 Lines: 89 At 04:01 PM 4/18/99 +0100, you wrote: >From: Colin Fine >vecu'u le notci po'u <199904180218.TAA11099@netcom14.netcom.com> la >Gerald Koenig cu cusku di'e >I think you are doubly on the wrong tack in this argument (which is not >to say that the argument itself is necessarily wrong). > >First, it is pointless resorting to an English dictionary to settle >arguments of Lojban semantics. If the dictionary does not support the >way that the writers of the gi'uste used an English word, tough. (Agreed >that this can make it hard to understand the meanings in the gi'uste, >but the only plausibly relevant authorities are the devisers of the >gi'uste and those who have since used and thought about Lojban. English >lexicographers are irrelevant). Especially since what we were trying to do in the gismu list was something other than traditional lexicography. First of all, we were trying to convey the full place structure and second of all we were trying to confine the gloss to a specific number of characters to fit the needs of LogFlash. >Secondly, the whole point of using terms like sumti and selbri in >discussing Lojban grammar is that they are not nouns and verbs, and this >is designed to keep us from being misled by irrelevant considerations of >English grammar. Vitally important. >You are touching on a useful and important distinction of Lojban (and >Loglan), but you seem to have it wrong. > >In Lojban, by definition, >- the only thing that can fill a place of a selbri is a sumti >- one form of sumti consists of a gadri (such as lo) followed by a >selbri >- one form of selbri consists of an abstractor (such as nu) followed by >a jufra (sentence or predication). > >It is probably also true that there is a feature, which one might call >+/-abstract (or kamsucta) which characterises every sumti; that this can >also characterise a selbri and be inherited from it in a selgadri; and >(more controversially) that some tersumti subcategorise for this >feature. > >But the conclusion that you seem to be trying to draw is that a >predication is a different kind of animal from a(n abstract) noun. This >may be true in English, but it is not in Lojban: NU turns a jufra into a >selbri co ckaji lo kamsucta, and then LO (including lo, le and loi) >turns this into a sumti co ckaji lo kamsucta. Grammatically it does not >matter whether the selbri has an abstractor (a fortiori whether it is nu >or ka). I agree entirely. >I think your point may be interpretable in terms of Lojban grammar by >assuming a further subcategorisation - suppose that some tersumti >subcategorise not just for kamsucta, but for kamfasnu (event) or >kamselckaji (property). You may be right, and nitcu is no doubt a word >where this question is significant. Here I am not sure. If I need a ride to a meeting, I don't think it is the case that I need a property abstract but an event abstract. If I need my computer to be monitoring for new incoming mail, I need a state abstract. >If this is correct, your argument is that nitcu requires a property and >not a predication or state-of-affairs. This is a possible position to >take, but it does not seem to me to be useful, or supported by the >arguments and usage of those who have considered or used nitcu in the >past. What is clear is that it cannot be supported by the choice of form >used in the English gloss. We can use the gismu list gloss to get some idea of intent, but glossing has limitations. Especially if there is conflict, bona fide communicative usage (as opposed to usage intended to experiment or lead to change) is in the long term going to predominate. lojbab ---- lojbab ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS*** lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ " Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.