X-Digest-Num: 130
Message-ID: <44114.130.773.959273824@eGroups.com>
Date: 4 May 1999 19:50:59 -0000
From: sklyanin@pdmi.ras.ru
Subject: Re: pamoi xatra
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la robin. cusku di'e

<372f3902.f97c764-@bcc.bilkent.edu.tr> wrote: 
Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/list/lojban/?start=1134
> From: Robin Turner <robin@Bilkent.EDU.TR>
> 
> 
> Well , the definition is
> 
> cilre [ cli ] learn
> x1 learns x2 (du'u) about subject x3 from source x4 (obj./event) by method x5
> (event/process)
> 
> I would assume then that {cilri} means "acquire knowledge/information about
> something", though the {du'u} kind of invites sentences like
> 
> mi puza cilre du'u la .evgenis. cu jbomi'u
> (I recently learned that Yevgeny was a fellow Lojbanist)
> 
> which kind of nullifies the third place. There again, I've never been able 
> to get the hang of {du'u}.
> 

My difficulty also. That is why I asked for an example where both x2  and x3
of {cilre} are not empty. When I am trying to invent one, it always turns out
that if x2 is occupied, x3 is redundant, and vice versa.

> English doesn't really draw a distinction between knowledge and information,
> except in mystical discourse and translations of Plato {zo'o}. 

Actually, it seems to do the distinction when speaking of providing
information/knowledge, as the example with "teach me phone number" shows.

> >
> > May I ask you to translate in Lojban my (A)-(B) examples, or similar 
> > phrases?
> > Will you use {cilre}? Are there good examples of using both x2 and x3
> > places in {cilre}?
> >
> 
> You'll have to ask Lojbab or Ivan to translate those ;-)
> 

Oh, I meant only translating my English examples from the previous paragraph,
which you kind of did, thank you. Still the question about using both x2 and x3
is pending.

> A very perceptive observation - you can learn someone's phone number, but they
> wouldn't "teach" it to you.  It seems "teach" has to involve the presentation of
> information in some systematic way.  

Yes, exactly. 
Hence the question: does {cilre} imply presenting information in a systematic
way?

co'o mi'e .evgenis.