From iad@math.bas.bg Thu Sep 30 18:04:09 1999
X-Digest-Num: 249
Message-ID: <44114.249.1370.959273825@eGroups.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:04:09 -0700
From: Ivan A Derzhanski <iad@math.bas.bg>
Subject: Re: Turkey (Re: cecla fanta flalu)
X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 1370

Adam Raizen wrote:
> From: "Mark E. Shoulson" <mark@kli.org>
> >From: "Adam Raizen" <araizen@newmail.net>
> > >Using "i'i" as the two consonants may not be as recognizable at
> > >first glance as "u'u", but if the sound in Turkish is the same as
> > >French u (IPA [y]), it should definitely be i, since [y] is a valid
> > >allophone for the letter i. This may not look exactly like most other
> > >languages, but this often happens when learning another language.
> >
> > Still, even Turks are used to seeing "Turkey" (or "Turk*") in just
> > about every other Latin-alphabet orthography.  That can't be a
> > coincidence; /y/ is close to /i/ in other languages as well.
> 
> No, it's not a coincidence; they all copied the spelling and not the
> pronunciation. It's up to Lojban to set the world straight zo'o.

What spelling did `they all' copy?  The Roman form _Türkiye_, which
didn't exist until 1921?  The Ottoman <turkIyeH>, which uses the same
diacritic for _u_ and _ü_?  The spelling in Turkic runes, where the
letter _ü_ has nothing in common with either _i_ or _u_?

(Btw, in Bulgarian and Russian, where Turkish _ü_ is usually rendered
as _ju_, Turkey is called _Turcija_, and a distinction is made between
_tur(k)-_ `Turkish' and the more recent _tjurk-_ `Turkic'.)

The point is that the form /turk/ as an alternative of /tyrk/ (IPA)
in those languages where /y/ is not a separate phoneme is a good deal
older than any spelling that `they all' could have copied.  It may
have to do with the fact that in Arabic (and Semitic in general)
/u/ does have front(ed) allophones, while /i/ has no rounded ones.
In any case, it is a result of the objective conditions of the
relevant linguistic environment.  Should Lojban's arbitrary
conventions take precedence over that?

-- 
"mu' Dajatlhpa', reH DajatlhlaH,  <soxan tA nagoftI, tawAnI-^s goft,
'ach Dajatlhpu'DI', DughatlhlaH"   walI gofteH rA bAz natwAn nehoft>
            (Sheikh Muslihuddin Abu Muhammad Abdullah Saadi Shirazi)
Ivan A Derzhanski                     <http://www.math.bas.bg/~iad/>
H: cplx Iztok bl 91, 1113 Sofia, Bulgaria          <iad@math.bas.bg>
W: Dept for Math Lx, Inst for Maths & CompSci, Bulg Acad of Sciences