From sentto-44114-1875-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Sat Jan 29 20:42:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 5862 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2000 20:42:21 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 29 Jan 2000 20:42:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 9477 invoked by uid 40001); 29 Jan 2000 20:43:51 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 9474 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2000 20:43:51 -0000 Received: from hk.egroups.com (208.48.218.13) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 29 Jan 2000 20:43:51 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-1875-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.35] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Jan 2000 20:43:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 28517 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2000 20:43:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.10.35 with QMQP; 29 Jan 2000 20:43:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.44) by mta1.onelist.com with SMTP; 29 Jan 2000 20:43:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 23371 invoked by uid 0); 29 Jan 2000 20:43:48 -0000 Message-ID: <20000129204348.23370.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 200.41.247.39 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:43:48 PST X-Originating-IP: [200.41.247.39] To: lojban@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@onelist.com; contact lojban-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:43:48 PST From: "Jorge Llambias" Subject: RE: [lojban] Subjunctive? Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Jorge Llambias" la and di'e mi spuda > > Obviously I have to admit some worlds where I have a million > > dollars, but I also have to exclude all worlds where most > > people have a million dollars. In other words, I have to > > admit only those worlds where my having a million dollars > > means I am rich. But then there is no content in the > > expression, all the content is in the selection of relevant > > worlds. Isn't it? > >You are right, though your point is exaggerated by the example, which >means "Anyone with a million dollars is rich" [in nonlogical form]. I think I agree. There is no difficulty in putting "anyone with a million dollars is rich" into logical form. Just the same as "if someone has a million dollars then they're rich". No need for possible worlds there: ro da zo'u ganai da ponse lo rupnu megdo gi da ricfu For all x, if x has a million dollars, then x is rich. If that's all "if I had a million dollars then I'd be rich" means, then there is no problem. The problem appears if we insist in using the word "mi" in the translation. >Change >it to "If I have/had a million dollars then I would/might buy a yacht" >and your argument is less glaringly obvious, though still valid. The restrictions to worlds where most people don't have a million dollars was so as to avoid worlds where the inflation in the US had been something like in Argentina, so that everyone would have a million dollars, and it would not be enough either to make you rich or buy you a yacht. >Without >thinking about it deeply, I think that it is correct that the content >should be in the selection of relevant worlds. But then we need a much more accurate way of identifying those worlds. For someone who doesn't know that if you have a million dollars then you are rich, telling them that in all relevant possible worlds, if they have a million dollars then they are rich does not tell them anything. They would have to be told which worlds are relevant. >If I insisted on avoiding r.q., would the following work? > > For some possible worlds (that are relevantly similar to this one), > w, in w I am able to retire and I have a million dollars. > >In other words, "if p then would q" is "Aw: in w, q or not p", and >"if p then might q" is "Ew, in w p and q". There must be something wrong with that unless "if I had a million dollars I might retire" has the same logical content of "if I retired I might have a million dollars". I can't pinpoint exactly where the problem is, but it has to do with the selection of relevant worlds. You are required to understand the English phrase before you decide which worlds are accepted and which are not, so the interesting content of the translation into logical form is all hidden there. co'o mi'e xorxes ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- Looking for the lowest refinance rate for your mortgage? GetSmart.com can help. We'll help you find the loan you need - quick, easy, and FREE click Click Here ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com