From sentto-44114-1829-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Sun Jan 23 10:14:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 8381 invoked from network); 23 Jan 2000 10:14:35 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 23 Jan 2000 10:14:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 7068 invoked by uid 40001); 23 Jan 2000 10:16:08 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 7065 invoked from network); 23 Jan 2000 10:16:08 -0000 Received: from hk.egroups.com (208.48.218.13) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 23 Jan 2000 10:16:08 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-1829-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.35] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Jan 2000 10:16:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 2568 invoked from network); 23 Jan 2000 10:16:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.10.35 with QMQP; 23 Jan 2000 10:16:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo18.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.8) by 10.1.10.26 with SMTP; 23 Jan 2000 10:16:06 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id h.1f.7a4047 (7331) for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 05:16:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1f.7a4047.25bc2ee2@aol.com> To: lojban@onelist.com X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 30 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@onelist.com; contact lojban-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 05:16:02 EST From: Pycyn@aol.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Subjunctive? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Pycyn@aol.com You're not just thinking English, except for thinking that the subjunctive is other than a grammatical category. The English (Latin, ...) subjunctives do a number of things, which are sorted out in Lojban to a number of cmavo. So, decide what you want to say and pick the appropriate device for doing it. Xorxes has, as usual, given a good starter list: for contrary-to-fact "conditionals" and past contemplated but undone actions (not, notice, a subjunctive even in English). Lojban tenses (ca,pu, ba, and compounds) are best taken as strictly truth-functional and linear, though there are arguments about the linear part and that allows for some "subjunctives." But better not to rely on that reading. So, puba *might* mean along some future path from some past time, and thus probably contrary to fact along the real (for us now anyhow) future to that past, but it is better to take it as being along the actual future to that past and thus either before, at, or after the present in the real stream of time. The virtues of puba and bapu are just that they don't tell us how the event is related to now, which is sometimes useful, when we don't know exactly: "He will have arrived by morning" (and for all I know is arrived already), etc. Most of the other compounds mirror the needs of a language which has obligatory tense, so needs compounds to move about in a narrative, as Lojban does not -- or not nearly so often. pc --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU! Tired of filling out forms and remembering passwords? Gator fills in forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons! Click Here ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com