From sentto-44114-2014-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Fri Feb 18 22:09:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 5783 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2000 22:09:28 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 18 Feb 2000 22:09:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 17123 invoked by uid 40001); 18 Feb 2000 22:12:25 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 17120 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2000 22:12:23 -0000 Received: from hj.egroups.com (208.48.218.12) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 18 Feb 2000 22:12:23 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-2014-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.37] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Feb 2000 22:12:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 5081 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2000 22:12:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.10.37 with QMQP; 18 Feb 2000 22:12:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stmpy.cais.net) (199.0.216.101) by 10.1.10.27 with SMTP; 18 Feb 2000 22:12:16 -0000 Received: from bob (dynamic197.cais.com [207.226.56.197]) by stmpy.cais.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA02596; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:30:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000218161934.00b3bef0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: vir1036/pop.cais.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 To: Ron Hale-Evans Cc: loglanists@ucsd.edu, logli@ucsd.edu, lojban@onelist.com, a.rosta@pmail.net In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000218131115.00b391e0@apocalypse.org> References: <4.2.2.20000218133217.00a53b40@127.0.0.1> <200002171027.CAA22319@mailbox1.ucsd.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@onelist.com; contact lojban-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:31:02 -0500 From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" Subject: Re: RE: Re[2]: [lojban] Dr. James Cooke Brown Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" At 01:12 PM 02/18/2000 -0800, Ron Hale-Evans wrote: >At 02:23 PM 2/18/00 -0500, you wrote: >From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" > >>Incidentally, the latter discussion points out the one problem with the >>"hoa" and "xo'a" introducers of the other language/dialect - while the two >>words look different in print, in speech they would likely be heard as the >>same word in either version, and thus be ineffective at indicating a change >>in dialect. Indeed, in our alternate orthography originally established to >>make rapprochement based on Lojban more attractive to the TLI Loglan >>community, the alternate orthography form of "xo'a" is exactly "hoa". >> >>lojbab > >Why, Bob? Couldn't one treat them as _toggles_ rather than as indicators >of a particular language? In other words, whenever you hear hoa/xo'a, you >switch to the other dialect. IMHO, this would only be a problem if > >1) Your listener did not already know which dialect you were speaking >(unlikely), or > >2) There were more than two dialects of Loglan/Lojban. A possibly valid point. Part of the reason I made the statement is that I gave examples in both dialects in my response to Slavik, and I was thinking about which word should label which switch, and I said them aloud and realized that they were not labelling a dialect. They could label the fact of a switch though. I am not sure that, especially if the communities merge, that in the spoken language someone would necessarily know the version. There are indeed a small infinity of sentences that are grammatical in both dialects, and a smaller infinity of sentences that are identical in meaning in both dialects (infinities because both grammars allow recursion that might add words without significant affect on meaning). Nora (and more rarely myself) often slips in a classical prim instead of the Lojban word because she so thoroughly learned the original set (using LogFlash, our implementation of JCB's original flashcard algorithm, which is especially effective in implanting words in long term memory) and never forgot it. (I mention the flashcard algorithm, because this is a somewhat less remembered but perhaps important part of JCB's legacy.) lojbab ---- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org (newly updated!) --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa. ZERO. Rates as low as 0 percent Intro or 9.9 percent Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points, no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the credit you deserve. Apply now. Get your NextCard Visa at Click Here ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com