From sentto-44114-2015-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Fri Feb 18 22:13:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 5791 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2000 22:13:21 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 18 Feb 2000 22:13:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 17300 invoked by uid 40001); 18 Feb 2000 22:16:19 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 17292 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2000 22:16:17 -0000 Received: from hj.egroups.com (208.48.218.12) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 18 Feb 2000 22:16:17 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-2015-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.37] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Feb 2000 22:16:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 7934 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2000 22:16:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.10.37 with QMQP; 18 Feb 2000 22:16:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stmpy.cais.net) (199.0.216.101) by 10.1.10.27 with SMTP; 18 Feb 2000 22:16:12 -0000 Received: from bob (dynamic197.cais.com [207.226.56.197]) by stmpy.cais.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08373; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:15:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000218170213.00a6bdf0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: vir1036/pop.cais.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 To: "Robert A. McIvor" , Steven Belknap , "Rex F. May" Cc: loglanists@ucsd.edu, logli@ucsd.edu, lojban@onelist.com In-Reply-To: References: <38AD6E82.ABFC77B@peakpeak.com> <38AD6E82.ABFC77B@peakpeak.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@onelist.com; contact lojban-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:15:46 -0500 From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" Subject: Re: [lojban] Dr. James Cooke Brown Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" At 03:41 PM 02/18/2000 -0500, Robert A. McIvor wrote: >At 11:53 AM -0600 2/18/00, Steven Belknap wrote: > >From: Steven Belknap > >textbook. It is important to understand that Loglan was *never* > >baselined. > > It was never intended that Loglan be baselined. Living >languages change and grow constantly. However they do so as a result of the usage of their speakers, and not as a result of external direction by scholars who are not necessarily even speaking the language. Lojban's baselining was a conscious decision to end at some point the imposition of directed change from outside. The current period is the time when our speaker base is growing, learning a stable language. Once that speaker base reaches a critical level, it will be hard to impose change from outside, and indeed discussion of change will likely only be respected if it takes place in-language. At that point, the baseline can end, and the speaker community will serve as our Loglan keugru (academy). > >In my judgement, there is simply not the manpower nor the will to do > >what is necessary to independently get Loglan to baseline. At this > >point, it is still a language "under construction", which tends to > >discourage anyone from learning the language, as it will very likely > >change should a baseline be attempted. > >In actual fact, changes to the grammar in recent years are very few and far >between. This is true. On the other hand, there was a post on alt.language.artificial just yesterday that indicated that both dialects suffer from the image of perpetual tinkering and no usage. I was able to correct him as to Lojban. > > There are a few > >inconsistencies and some areas of incompleteness in the Loglan > >grammer. > >I am unaware of inconsistencies in the grammar. Whether or not it is >complete is a matter of definition. I imagine there are structures in >other languages that have no counterpart in either Loglan or Lojban. >e.g. the Turkish 'gossip' tense that has been recently discussed. Lojban has evidentials, after the manner of Elgin's Laadan and Native American languages. These are optional and have the grammar and some of the semantics of UI, hence can be attached to tense or other construct. I believe that all of the functionality of the tense can be emulated with the "I hear" or another evidential, possibly with additional attitudinal markers. Perhaps Robin Turner, our resident Turkish expert can comment. lojbab > >There is no complete dictionary of predicates. > >There has been for years a computerized dictionary not only of predicates >but of most currently used words. I cannot say 'all' as writers can add to >the list at any time, and >new versions of the dictionary come out only occasionally. I believe >Loglan is >ahead of Lojban in this regard. > > >>There are > >inconsistencies in the place structures of Loglan words, even within > >the last published documentation of the language. > >I agree with this criticism, but we try to correct these as effort is >available. > > >> I don't think there exists a full grammer. At least I haven't seen one. > >There is a published grammar which is conflict free in YACC, and which >parses all currently well-formed Loglan sentences. I believe it is published >on the Loglan web site. Rarely (maybe as much as once a year) someone >produces a sentence that parses or fails to parse as 'da' intended, and >that da feels should. Such a change is discussed by the 'Academy', and, if >approved, the grammar is altered. No major changes have occurred for >years, though there have been some additions. > >I suppose > >one could simply make a new Loglan which is identical to lojban in > >grammer, but has the Loglan words instead. That would be nearly > >painless for Loglanders and would be fairly straightforward. > > > Since Loglan is not baselined, I am sure we would accept changes >to the grammar that we could be convinced were desirable for whatever >reason. > > >It is certainly important that the two communities treat each other > >with mutual respect during the fusion of the two languages. I like > >the formalism. If this is done, both communities will > >have a viable means of communicating unambiguously in the same forum. > >Agreed. > > >Given the greater size and vigor of the lojban communit, I would > >predict that the Loglan lexicon will eventually become an alternate > >historical lexicon, sort of like ancient Greek is to modern Greek. > > > >Time will tell. > >Sincerely, >Robert A. McIvor >(rmcivor@mac.com) > ---- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org (newly updated!) --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- Get your money connected at OnMoney.com - the first Web site that lets you see, consolidate, and manage all of your finances all in one place. Click Here ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com