From sentto-44114-2034-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Sun Feb 20 02:47:37 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 7667 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2000 02:47:35 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 20 Feb 2000 02:47:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 3755 invoked by uid 40001); 20 Feb 2000 02:50:19 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 3752 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2000 02:50:17 -0000 Received: from hi.egroups.com (208.48.218.11) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 20 Feb 2000 02:50:17 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-2034-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.38] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2000 02:50:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 32251 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2000 23:01:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.10.38 with QMQP; 19 Feb 2000 23:01:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailhost.pemail2.net) (195.92.25.8) by 10.1.10.27 with SMTP; 19 Feb 2000 23:01:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 26647 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2000 23:01:11 -0000 Received: from m5-mp1-cvx1c.lan.ntl.com (HELO andrew) (62.252.172.5) by mailhost.pemail2.net with SMTP; 19 Feb 2000 23:01:11 -0000 To: "The Lojban List" Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@onelist.com; contact lojban-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 23:02:04 -0000 X-eGroups-From: "And Rosta" From: "And Rosta" Subject: RE: [lojban] 3 loafs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "And Rosta" > From: "Robert A. McIvor" > > >> And Rosta wrote: > >>> From: John Cowan > >>> > >>> Robert A. McIvor scripsit: > >>> > >>> > >> In Loglan, I would have said 'da [pa] gentci ne rebfoa' He/she/it > >>> > >> again-ate a bread-loaf, which put the stress on the repetition of > >>> > >> the eating act rather than the characteristics of the loaf. > >>> > > > >>> Ah, I see the problem. You mean to say that he is eating a loaf (the > >>> same or another) on a *different* occasion, whereas I understood you to > >>> mean that he is eating a loaf on *multiple* occasions, in which case I > >>> think it is clear that the same loaf is meant. > >> > >>As for the actual Lojban ex given above, my interpretation is John's. > >> > > Maybe I confused things a bit by the E translation 'again-ate'. > >However, as a matter of principle, I consider a predicate to indicate an > >operation which takes arguments. I see no reason why the arguments should > >be considered to be linked unless the arguments themselves specify a > >linkage. To me, gentci just indicated two eating operations linked as a > >time-series. Since the bread arguments were both indefinite, in my > >opinion there is no reason to consider them linked. However, if, as in E, > >one wished definitely to indicate that the same loaf was not eaten twice, > >one could say ne norsao rebfoa (a not-same bread-form). Does Lojban > >interpret predicates differently? It is simply a question of scope. Is "again-eat da" the same as "Ex, again it is the case that x is eaten" or as "again it is the case that Ex, x is eaten" ? For Lojban, it is the former, because the scope of scope-sensitive elements expressed by the predicate is within the scope of scope-sensitive elements expressed by the arguments. Conversely, and for the same reason, "again, he bread-ate" would mean "again it is the case that Ex, bread, he ate x". As far as I can see, the grammar has to take a position on the relative scope of scope-sensitive elements expressed by the predicate, and the Lojban position seems to me the most appropriate. I don't fully understand your rationale for opting for a different interpretation. --And. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa! ZERO! Rates as low as 0.0% Intro APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points, no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the credit you deserve! Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at: http://click.egroups.com/1/966/1/_/17627/_/951014972/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com