From sentto-44114-2087-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Mon Feb 28 19:31:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 22639 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2000 19:31:36 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 28 Feb 2000 19:31:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 22312 invoked by uid 40001); 28 Feb 2000 19:35:13 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 22309 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2000 19:35:12 -0000 Received: from c3.egroups.com (208.48.218.20) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 28 Feb 2000 19:35:12 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-2087-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.38] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Feb 2000 19:35:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 8856 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2000 19:35:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m4.onelist.org with QMQP; 28 Feb 2000 19:35:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.59) by mta2.onelist.org with SMTP; 28 Feb 2000 19:35:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 14434 invoked by uid 0); 28 Feb 2000 19:35:02 -0000 Message-ID: <20000228193502.14433.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 200.41.247.56 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:35:02 PST X-Originating-IP: [200.41.247.56] To: lojban@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@onelist.com; contact lojban-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:35:02 PST X-eGroups-From: "Jorge Llambias" From: "Jorge Llambias" Subject: [lojban] Use and abuse of sets Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Jorge Llambias" la adam cusku di'e >What *is* the word for a mathematical set? The closest I can come >up with is "selcmi", but that doesn't require complete specification >of the set (and you've also already rejected that zo'o). I guess {cmacykle} or something else with {klesi}. For example: abu ca'e cmacykle lei prenu le ka ce'u clamau la djan Let A be the set of people who are taller than John. I have no idea what to do with the places of {cmaci}. >Consider these two sentences: > >le'i damba cu daxsi'u > >lei damba cu daxsi'u > >In my opinion, the first claims that each member of the group in >question hits every other member, while the second only requires >that some part of the group hits each other (but that it's >presumably significant to mention it of the whole group). Right, and the second is the useful one. When you say of a group of people that they are hitting each other you don't really mean to assert an exhaustive set of relationships between each member with every other member. >If, for >example, there are two rival gangs in a brawl, it's obvious that the >combatants don't hit members of their own gang, so the "le'i" >version isn't correct. I think that the "lei" version expresses the >situation well. I agree. And even if it is not two gangs but a general Hollywood-western bar-brawl you still don't want to claim that every single person hits each and everyone else. >OTOH, if you want to say that every member of a >group performs some action on every other member, using a set is >the most clear. Yes, but does this situation ever come up? Or at least as often as to require a whole set of cmavo to describe it? >Officially, only "le'i" is allowed, but I think that using >"lei" opens up interesting and useful distinctions such as this one. I don't think that the gismu list suggesting a set for a given place means that *only* sets are allowed officially. I usually use masses where the gismu list suggests sets. {mi'o} is {mi joi do}, so if only sets were allowed with {simxu} you couldn't say something like {mi'o daxysi'u}, you'd have to say {mi ce do daxysi'u}. Loglanists use the word "set" to describe what we call "mass". (And they use "mass" for something else.) They had some discussion about whether their sets were mathematical sets, or whether they were just collective references like our masses, and they (sensibly) decided that they are the latter. So they don't have any special cmavo for mathematical sets. Hopefully Lojban will eventually lose those cmavo, if I can convince people not to use them... co'o mi'e xorxes ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% Intro APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! http://click.egroups.com/1/967/1/_/17627/_/951766503/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com