From sentto-44114-1962-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Wed Feb 09 19:26:48 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: shoulson-kli@meson.org Received: (qmail 22852 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2000 19:26:47 -0000 Received: from zash.lupine.org (205.186.156.18) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 9 Feb 2000 19:26:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 25586 invoked by uid 40001); 9 Feb 2000 19:29:00 -0000 Delivered-To: kli-mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 25583 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2000 19:28:58 -0000 Received: from hl.egroups.com (208.48.218.14) by zash.lupine.org with SMTP; 9 Feb 2000 19:28:58 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-1962-mark=kli.org@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.36] by hl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Feb 2000 19:28:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 13940 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2000 19:28:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.10.36 with QMQP; 9 Feb 2000 19:28:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stmpy.cais.net) (199.0.216.101) by mta1.onelist.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2000 19:28:54 -0000 Received: from bob (dynamic22.cais.com [207.226.56.22]) by stmpy.cais.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14064; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:28:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000209141126.00b0a860@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: vir1036/pop.cais.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 To: lojban@onelist.com Cc: Evgueni Sklyanin In-Reply-To: <200002091053.KAA23756@euclid.pdmi.ras.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@onelist.com; contact lojban-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 14:29:19 -0500 From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: 3 loaves Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" At 10:53 AM 02/09/2000 +0000, sklyanin@pdmi.ras.ru wrote: >From: sklyanin@pdmi.ras.ru > >Ivan Derzhanski wrote: > > >> Also it should be {pa barda bliku}, > >> or {pa lo barda bliku}, not {lo pa}. > > >Or {lo barda nanba}. One kalach is simply a large quantity > >of good white bread. > >It was my first choice too. However, after that I reread the definition >of the gismu {nanba} and noticed that it is expressed precisely in the >same words as that of e.g. {djacu} or other uncountable substances. Compare: > >{nanba}: x1 is a quantity of/contains bread [leavened or unleavened] made > from grains x2 > >{djacu}: x1 is made of/contains/is a quantity/expanse of water > >{cidro}: x1 is a quantity of/contains/is made of hydrogen (H) > > >From this parallelism I concluded (prematurely?) that bread is treated in >lojban as a substance, like water, milk, air etc. So, I decided in favor of >{bliku} as a safely countable object. > >By the way, can we say {pa djacu}, or {pa cidro}? Does it have any reasonable >meaning? You are looking at an English artifact. In Lojban, all things are countable with pa/le and all things are massifiable with pisu'o/lei. In English, bread is usually a mass noun - "have some bread", not "have a bread" - so I used the mass wording in the English definition of the gismu. As for what the unit is, when you attach a count to a traditionally massed item, it is determined by the context. With English count nouns, we generally assume the default - the smallest unit that retains the sense of being a whole. With English mass nouns, using a count indicates a socially relevant quantity ("Waiter, we would like a beer and two waters.") I would assume therefore that pa djacu either means a molecule (or other small portion of water that has all the relevant properties of water), or a conversationally relevant quantity of water (a glassful or a pitcher). The same would be true for pa cidro, except that one must strain to come up with a conversationally relevant usage. How about tanks of various gasses in a factory? "Load 3 hydrogens and 1 helium on the truck" would have a clearly Lojban counterpart. The difference of course is that Lojban does not restrict when this can be done at all. lojbab ---- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- $10 Savings on Pet Valentine Gifts. Looking for that pet-perfect Valentine’s Day gift? Click here for $10 off purchases of $25 or more. Click Here ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com